Captain's Dinner: The Story of the Mignonette

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Listener note The following 
episode contains a depiction of 

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cannibalism. 
While brief, it may not be 

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suitable for children. 
It's the 5th of July 1884. 

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Captain Thomas Dudley and his 
small crew of three are on board

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the yacht Mignonette in the 
South Atlantic. 

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Dudley was hired to deliver the 
52 foot vessel from England to 

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Sydney, Australia. 
A dangerous journey for the 

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small yacht, but it was good pay
and Dudley desperately needed 

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the money. 
The journey had mostly been a 

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pleasant one, but for the past 
week a relentless Gale had 

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battered the vessel, tore at its
sails and pushed the crew to 

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exhaustion. 
After a brief reprieve as they 

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sailed through the center of the
storm, winds and waves returned 

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to torment them. 
Dudley orders the mainsail 

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reefed, the storm try sail set 
and takes the help to point the 

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mignonette into the wind, a 
maneuver to reduce the impact of

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the waves. 
As she comes about, waves crash 

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into her broadside, rolling her 
dangerously over to one side 

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before finally riding herself. 
The crew struggle to keep their 

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footing as the yacht battles the
violent seas. 

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Seaman Edward Brooks has been 
securing the ship's dinghy, 

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while Captain Dudley covered the
skylight with spare canvas. 

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Sail cabin boy Richard Parker, 
an inexperienced and seasick 

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teenager, could do little to 
help. 

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First Mate Edwin Stevens, now at
the helm, looks up to see a 

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towering monster, a wall of 
water looming over them. 

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It is higher than the main mast,
at least 60 feet, he thinks to 

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himself. 
Brooks wraps 2 full turns of 

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rope around his arm, lashing 
himself to the ship, and 

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prepares for the crushing force.
Captain Dudley calls out to 

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Parker. 
Look out. 

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The monster then cascades down 
on the helpless yacht, the Rogue

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Wave completely engulfing her 
with full fury. 

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Stevens is thrown violently 
against the bulwark, and the 

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vessel drops into a deep 
through. 

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Following the wave, it's stern 
plunges hard into the water, 

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completely awash, before popping
up again. 

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Pulling himself back up, Stevens
peers toward the bow of the 

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ship. 
He cries out. 

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My God, her topsides are stove 
in. 

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She is sinking. 
Brooks quickly cuts the dinghy 

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free with an axe and lowers it 
into the rough seas below. 

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Dudley and Parker rush below 
deck to retrieve a cask of fresh

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water. 
They hurl it over the side near 

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the dinghy, but the strong 
current quickly whisks it away 

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before Brooks could grab it. 
Stephenson Parker then climbed 

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down aboard the dinghy, but 
Dudley hesitates, knowing there 

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is no food or water in the tiny 
boat. 

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He wades into the chest deep 
water below and grabs 6TIN cans 

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of meat, or so he believes. 
Hopefully it will be enough, he 

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says to himself. 
But that is all he can do as the

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ship is sinking quickly. 
Dudley scrambles to the main 

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deck and down the stern as the 
vessel underneath him churns and

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groans in its final moments. 
He leaps into the dinghy but in 

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doing so manages to hold on to 
only one of the 10s in his arms.

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One other is retrieved out of 
the water but the remaining are 

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lost. 
Dudley's disappointment is clear

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when he sees the two 10s he 
managed to save do not contain 

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meat but turnips. 
Worse yet, a hole had been 

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punched in the dinghy when it 
was cut loose, and it was 

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leaking badly. 
Dudley, Stevens, Brooks and 

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Parker watch as the mignonette 
disappears under the waves. 

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They are in the middle of the 
South Atlantic, struggling to 

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stay afloat in a flimsy, leaking
wooden lifeboat over 1000 miles 

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from the nearest land, with no 
fresh water and only two cans of

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turnips. 
The long days ahead will be a 

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test of their courage, sanity 
and their very humanity. 

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Captain's Dinner. 
The story of the Mignonette 

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today on shipwrecks and sea 
dogs. 

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Hello, and welcome to Shipwrecks
and Sea Dogs, tales of mishaps, 

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misfortune and misadventure. 
I'm your host, Rich Napolitano. 

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Today I'm very honored to be 
joined by author Adam Cohen, and

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we will be discussing his new 
book, Captain's Dinner. 

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Adam, thank you so much for 
joining me. 

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Oh, it's great to be here. 
The true story you tell in 

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Captain's Dinner is a bit 
different from the usual 

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maritime story that I cover on 
this podcast. 

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Your book poses the question, is
it ever acceptable to sacrifice 

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an innocent person for the sake 
of others? 

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It's a maritime story, but it's 
also a quite interesting legal 

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drama with some pretty deep 
ethical perspectives. 

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Before we get into the details, 
would you like to give a brief 

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synopsis just to introduce the 
listeners to the story? 

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Sure, it's a story about a 
captain and a crew of three who 

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are hired to deliver a yacht 
from England to someone who 

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bought it in Australia. 
And it's not an easy journey for

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a yacht that size. 
And in their case, it went very 

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badly. 
There was a shipwreck. 

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The four men escaped in a little
lifeboat. 

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They have very little food and 
very little water. 

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And eventually the captain 
decides that to keep them alive,

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they will kill the cabin boy and
eat him, which they do. 

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And then a few days later, the 
three survivors are rescued by a

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passing ship. 
They return to England. 

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They tell everyone what they 
did, that they killed the cabin 

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boy because back then you were 
allowed to do that. 

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It was called the custom of the 
sea, and it was not so uncommon.

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What was a shock to them is that
they were actually arrested and 

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put on trial for murder the 
first time that it happened. 

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And the book is about the 
shipwreck, the aftermath, and 

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then what happens to them when 
they are charged with murder for

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that. 
And we're going to get into all 

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those details in just a moment. 
But you're suited to write the 

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story as you're not only an 
author but a lawyer. 

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Do you want to provide a short 
bio of your background regarding

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this? 
Sure, I am a lawyer and a writer

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and I was a public interest 
lawyer out of law school. 

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And then I became a journalist. 
I worked for Time magazine in 

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the New York Times. 
This is actually the 6th book 

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I've written. 
And I will say this book comes 

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directly out of my law school 
experience because I didn't 

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actually learn this case in law 
school, but my law school 

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roommate did. 
And as it happened, first year 

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of law school, he and I gave a 
Halloween party. 

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Come as your favorite case or 
legal doctrine. 

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My law school roommate, who's 
now a federal judge, came as the

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captain and he, he put raw 
chicken parts around his neck, 

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which he, he recalled to me just
the other day, spattered with 

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ketchup for the blood. 
And he made quite an impression 

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on everyone at the party and on 
me. 

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So it made me think about the 
case back then. 

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And when I was thinking about 
what I wanted to write about 

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next, I thought back to that 
party, that little cannibalism 

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costume, and it kind of got me 
started. 

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That's quite a back story. 
So getting into the story, we're

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talking about a vessel called 
the Mignonette. 

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It was not a very large vessel. 
It was only 52 feet, large boat 

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for the average person, but not 
an ocean going vessel by any 

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stretch. 
So what factors were going on, 

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both on a larger scale in 
England and on a more personal 

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note to Thomas Dudley, that led 
him to accept this job to sail 

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the Mignonette to Australia? 
Yeah, so there was a little bit 

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of desperation in the air. 
This was the what they call the 

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dying age of sail sailing was on
the way out and this year was 

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actually 1884. 
When this all occurred was 

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actually the precise moment when
the tonnage carried by 

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steamships and in in Britain 
surpassed the tonnage carried by

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sail ships. 
So if you were a sailor, your 

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career opportunities were 
diminishing very rapidly. 

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There was a second thing that 
added a little bit of air of 

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desperation, which is quite a 
few people in the captain's 

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position and the cruise 
position. 

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We're thinking about escaping 
England because that way of life

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was winding down and going to 
Australia. 

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The one thing about this 
particular assignment is it was 

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not only a well paying job and 
the purchaser of the yacht, they

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pay a little extra because of 
the danger of the journey, but 

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also it gave all four of the men
an opportunity to see Australia 

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and all four of them were 
thinking about maybe moving 

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there. 
It was actually a very expensive

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thing back then to be able to 
travel there. 

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So you're average sailor or 
captain didn't really have the 

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money to just take a vacation 
and check out Australia. 

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So this would have been a way on
someone else's dime to take a 

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look, see what what Australia 
looked like, what living there 

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looked like, what the career 
prospects for sailor looked 

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like. 
So those were some of the 

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reasons that they overcame the 
concerns they all had about 

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making a pretty. 
Challenging journey, yeah. 

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And even by 1884, you know, 
Australia had been settled about

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100 years prior, but even by 
1884, it was a place to escape 

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and and start over. 
So I could see why, you know, in

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the changing climate of England 
and the industrial revolution, 

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etcetera, they'd want to perhaps
start fresh in Australia and 

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maybe something better for their
family was there. 

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That's exactly right. 
And also because there was a bit

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of an economic booming on there,
a lot of investment. 

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It was getting a reputation as a
working man's paradise. 

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The wages were going there were 
jobs were plentiful. 

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So it was seen as a land of 
opportunity for sure. 

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Now Dudley needed a crew. 
As is obvious it was not going 

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to be an easy journey on this 
small boat going through the 

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Atlantic, around Africa, through
the Indian Ocean. 

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So he had some trouble finding a
crew. 

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How did that shape up for him as
far as who we hired originally 

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and and then who wound up part 
of his crew ultimately? 

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Yeah, it's a great point. 
When you make a journey like 

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this, if you're the captain, you
do need to find a crew. 

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And as you say, it's not always 
easy. 

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We we all know stories about in 
those days, sometimes there 

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would be things like impressment
and Shanghai and sailors because

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they they needed labor and 
sometimes the labor was 

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available, sometimes it wasn't. 
So there was interest in the in 

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this journey for sure. 
And there was a labor force out 

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there to do it, but there were 
concerns about the safety of it.

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So the first person he hired to 
be his mate signed up to do it 

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and then backed out. 
And his name is actually still 

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on the papers, but he backed 
out. 

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It seems like he backed out 
because of fear of what would 

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happen on the trip, whether this
ship was really going to make it

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there. 
He signed up a pair of brothers 

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who actually started on the 
very, very beginning of the 

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journey, the preamble to the 
journey, which was getting the 

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boat within England to the port 
from which it would leave. 

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And in that short little trip, 
there was a storm. 

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And it's possible possible that 
what they saw in that storm on 

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the mini net was a factor. 
But they also dropped out, 

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probably again because of 
concerns about the journey. 

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Eventually, he does get a crew 
of three to agree to go. 

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Each of them were warned by 
family and friends that this 

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might not be a good idea, but 
the captain talked them into 

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doing it. 
But I do point out as the 

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journey begins that it was 
probably an ominous sign that 

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literally as many people as he 
had hired to do the journey had 

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backed out as agreed to go in 
the end, 3:00 and 3:00. 

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So it was a bit of a cloud over 
the journey before he even 

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started. 
The unfortunate soul on this 

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trip. 
His name is Richard Parker. 

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Dudley had to do a real sales 
job on Parker and some of what 

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he did is really very pointed 
now as we know what happened 

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because one of the main reasons 
Parker went is Parker was 

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interested also in going to 
Australia. 

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So that was a draw. 
He was interested in a good 

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paying job, which this was. 
But also he was an orphan who 

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very sadly lost both of his 
parents at a young age. 

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He was not even fully educated. 
He dropped out of school. 

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He had some good foster parents 
at this point, but he really 

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didn't have a good education or,
you know, a father figure from 

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the beginning. 
And Captain Dudley held himself 

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00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:47,880
out in that way to the orphan 
Richard Parker. 

221
00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:51,520
And he even said that he would 
tutor him in in reading and 

222
00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:52,880
brought some books along the 
way. 

223
00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:57,360
So for Parker, you know, Parker 
said to his stepparents that he 

224
00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,200
wanted to make a man of himself.
That was one reason he wanted to

225
00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:02,560
go on the journey. 
And he did look up to Captain 

226
00:13:02,560 --> 00:13:04,160
Dudley. 
So that ended that. 

227
00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:06,800
As I say, an extra layer of 
poignance because this was 

228
00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:10,360
almost a parental relationship 
between the captain and the 

229
00:13:10,560 --> 00:13:13,760
ill-fated cabin boy. 
So the Minionette departed 

230
00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:19,320
Southampton on May 19th, 1884. 
When did the first signs of 

231
00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:22,520
trouble appear? 
You know, it was really smooth 

232
00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:25,760
sailing for quite a long time 
and they were writing home to 

233
00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:27,600
their families. 
They were saying how great 

234
00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,080
things were going. 
They were having a really good 

235
00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:32,560
time. 
A lot of their initial fears 

236
00:13:32,560 --> 00:13:36,240
that this was not something that
would be doable in this boat 

237
00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:38,840
really fell away. 
They began to be pretty 

238
00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:40,480
optimistic about how things were
going. 

239
00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:45,440
Then they crossed the equator. 
And I do talk about how back 

240
00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:49,120
then sailors were very 
superstitious and special things

241
00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:51,120
were done to people who were 
crossing the equator for the 

242
00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:53,120
first time. 
And, you know, some of that was 

243
00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:55,920
to relieve the boredom. 
But there was a real element of 

244
00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:58,240
superstition, of course, among 
sailors. 

245
00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:01,560
And this was seen as a way of 
sort of appeasing the gods of, 

246
00:14:01,560 --> 00:14:05,200
like, playing them and 
requesting their good graces. 

247
00:14:05,560 --> 00:14:07,920
Apparently, in the mini net, 
they did not do these things, 

248
00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,200
even though two of the people on
the boat had never crossed the 

249
00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:12,480
equator. 
And whether it was for that 

250
00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:16,400
reason or just, you know, more 
meteorological reasons, shortly 

251
00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:20,240
after they crossed the equator, 
the seas got very rough. 

252
00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:22,200
And the ship. 
The ship became a different kind

253
00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:25,240
of trip. 
They failed to honor King 

254
00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:28,880
Neptune's court, as they say. 
Yes, that's exactly. 

255
00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:30,200
Right. 
A lot of superstitions. 

256
00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:34,160
But what happens, they come into
some really bad weather and you 

257
00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:35,920
know, this tiny ship, they're 
out in the middle of the 

258
00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:39,560
Atlantic, really not any place 
of yacht should be. 

259
00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:42,560
And they have some pretty big 
challenges with the weather. 

260
00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:44,880
They get swamped by a wave. 
So what happens next? 

261
00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,040
Yeah, You know, it was actually 
a moment when they thought they 

262
00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:51,200
were kind of just able to ride 
out this very terrible weather. 

263
00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:54,480
And the captain said, Richard, 
part of the cabin boy download, 

264
00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:56,880
make the fixings for tea. 
They were just going to sort of 

265
00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:59,560
Hove to and have. 
And just as all this was 

266
00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:03,360
happening, an enormous wave 
comes and got completely swamps 

267
00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:07,520
the rips out one of the sides. 
And it wasn't really a question 

268
00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:10,000
of whether, but when they were 
going to escape. 

269
00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:13,320
And they make a fairly 
miraculous escape. 

270
00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,120
You know, it's going down and 
it's going down quickly, but 

271
00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:18,160
they make it into their tiny 
little lifeboat. 

272
00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:19,720
But a lot of challenges up 
ahead. 

273
00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:23,520
There were, and one of one of 
the challenges was that we're 

274
00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:29,040
actually at this point by 1884, 
some pretty detailed regulations

275
00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:33,200
requiring captains to have an 
appropriate amount of food for 

276
00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:36,760
their crew on the ship. 
And I actually, when I was doing

277
00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:39,800
the research for those able to 
see the documents showing that 

278
00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:43,200
the captain, captain who said he
would bring in terms of food and

279
00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:45,120
what kind of food he'd be 
offering at different days of 

280
00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:46,360
the week. 
So there was all that. 

281
00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:49,320
But what there wasn't was any 
kind of regulation requiring 

282
00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:53,080
food on the lifeboat so that he 
rushed down below and tries to 

283
00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:56,400
grab a few cans. 
And he asks the cowboy to grab a

284
00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:59,600
beaker of water. 
And they throw some of the stuff

285
00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:03,680
into the water where they hope 
it will float because the the 

286
00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:07,720
lifeboat was so fragile with a 
little bit of food and water. 

287
00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:12,000
But by the time they are 
actually floating away, it 

288
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:13,480
becomes clear they haven't 
brought much. 

289
00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:15,480
They did not get the beaker of 
water in. 

290
00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:19,720
They've got a few tins of food, 
but that turns out to be not 

291
00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:22,760
meat as they hope, but turnips. 
So there they are in this 

292
00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:27,880
lifeboat with really no water, 
very little food, and also the 

293
00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:31,320
lifeboat has sprung a leak which
they're desperately trying to to

294
00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:34,440
plug with, you know, some bits 
of like garbage. 

295
00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:38,000
And and then they see that their
struggles have really just 

296
00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,280
begun. 
Yeah, I can imagine the 

297
00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:44,360
disappointment. 2 cans of 
turnips are the only thing they 

298
00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:46,960
have. 
So yeah, not all, you know, a 

299
00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:49,680
little bit of nutrients there, 
but not enough and they were in 

300
00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:51,240
trouble. 
So they're out here weathering 

301
00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:55,400
the the waves and the wind and 
this tiny lifeboat leaking or 

302
00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:58,080
they have just the turnips, no 
drinkable water. 

303
00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:02,040
Soon after, Richard Parker 
starts having some trouble. 

304
00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:04,480
He becomes sick. 
Now why does he become so sick 

305
00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:07,160
so. 
Everyone understood that you're 

306
00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:11,760
not supposed to drink seawater, 
that it's it will get you sick 

307
00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:13,640
and probably kill you pretty 
quickly. 

308
00:17:14,079 --> 00:17:18,200
Richard Parker, He knew that, 
but he also really felt that he 

309
00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:22,359
couldn't resist. 
So he was secretly at night when

310
00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:25,160
the others were watching, 
drinking seawater, and it did in

311
00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:34,960
fact get him very sick. 
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About 11 days in, the only thing
they've had to eat so far were 

351
00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:58,600
the turnips, which they finished
off pretty quickly, and a sea 

352
00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:01,280
turtle that they managed to kill
and eat raw. 

353
00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:04,680
You wrote in your book that 
Dudley makes an announcement. 

354
00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:08,240
You write it was necessary, he 
told the others, to kill one of 

355
00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:11,600
the men in the lifeboat and eat 
him so the other three could 

356
00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:14,160
survive. 
We shall have to draw lots, my 

357
00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:17,760
boys. 
Can you explain this maritime 

358
00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:20,600
custom of drawing lots that 
Dudley is referring to here? 

359
00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:23,480
Sure. 
It was known as the custom of 

360
00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:26,280
the sea, and it was not an 
uncommon thing. 

361
00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:28,640
It's actually been written about
quite a bit. 

362
00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:32,040
Edgar Allan Poe only wrote one 
novel in his lifetime, and in 

363
00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:35,800
that novel there is a drawing of
lots, a custom of the sea, and 

364
00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,320
someone is. 
Someone draws the short lot and 

365
00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:43,480
is in one of the great epic 
poems by Lord Byron, who's also 

366
00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:45,760
drawing of lots. 
So this is something that was 

367
00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:48,000
well known and and happened 
quite a bit. 

368
00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:51,800
It didn't mean that sailors 
always wanted to do it. 

369
00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:56,200
And in this case, when Captain 
Dudley first suggested it, not 

370
00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:58,480
to the cabin boy who was not 
part of these discussions, but 

371
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:01,000
to the other two men, they did 
not want to do it. 

372
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:05,000
So he did not get agreement even
though he raised it a few times.

373
00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:08,080
As they continue to go on 
without any food or water, 

374
00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:11,200
Darker gets even sicker and 
sicker and he's not looking so 

375
00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:13,720
great. 
And Dudley makes a decision. 

376
00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:17,800
And the important thing here is 
he decides not to draw lots. 

377
00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,920
Ultimately, that's going to come
into account later. 

378
00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,400
Right. 
So he eventually does convince 

379
00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:27,880
one of the other men, his mate 
does agree with him that at this

380
00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:30,480
point it should be done. 
The third one, a guy named 

381
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:34,120
Brooks, never agrees. 
And he always says I would like 

382
00:21:34,120 --> 00:21:37,000
to not be killed and I would 
like to not kill. 

383
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:40,520
So Brooks actually absence 
himself from the whole thing to 

384
00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:42,480
the extent that you can on a 
tiny lifeboat. 

385
00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:46,000
But Brooks, when all this goes 
down, goes to the front of the 

386
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,680
lifeboat and covers his head 
with a raincoat and is not 

387
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:52,400
involved. 
But the captain gets his mate to

388
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:55,200
agree to be part of this 
conspiracy to kill the cabin 

389
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:57,160
boy. 
And he tells the mate to stand 

390
00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:01,320
nearby and be ready to hold the 
cabin boy's feet down if if 

391
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:02,800
that's necessary. 
It turns out not to be 

392
00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:05,280
necessary. 
And what happens is pretty 

393
00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:07,440
simple. 
The captain takes out a knife 

394
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:09,960
that he has. 
He approaches the cabin boy 

395
00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:13,120
who's lying there on the bottom 
of lifeboat kind of groaning. 

396
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:15,920
And it's clear he's about to 
slit his foot. 

397
00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:19,240
And very pointly, it's also 
clear that even though the cabin

398
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:21,600
boy was sick, he knew exactly 
what was going on. 

399
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:25,120
And he looked at the captain, 
the captain who remember had 

400
00:22:25,120 --> 00:22:27,720
been offering himself up at the 
beginning of the trip as a 

401
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:32,280
surrogate father, as a mature. 
And he said to him, what me Sir.

402
00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:34,360
And he figured out exactly what 
was going to happen. 

403
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:39,560
The captain then does quickly 
slit the cabin boy's throat, and

404
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:44,080
the real rush at that point is 
not for the meat of the cabin 

405
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:47,400
boy, but for the blood, because 
people die a lot faster of 

406
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:51,920
thirst than they do of hunger. 
So what then went on was the 

407
00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:55,720
captain and the mate capturing 
the blood as it spurts out of 

408
00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:58,400
the cabin boy's neck and 
drinking it. 

409
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:02,320
And at this point, Brooks, who 
had been not participating, when

410
00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:06,120
he sees what has happened, he 
does ask if he can have a little

411
00:23:06,120 --> 00:23:10,080
blood, and he's given a little 
bit, but he finds it has 

412
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:12,920
glaculated quite quickly. 
But they do drink the cabin 

413
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,160
boy's blood. 
And then Next up, they begin 

414
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,840
eating some of his organs while 
they're still warm, as they 

415
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:21,720
recall later, and then 
eventually eating other parts of

416
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:25,080
his body as well. 
Yeah, And obviously all of this 

417
00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:29,160
is quite gruesome, especially to
our modern ears. 

418
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:33,560
But you know, this is where it 
gets interesting because all of 

419
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,080
us would would say, Oh my gosh, 
I would never do that. 

420
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:39,840
This is terrible. 
But the truth is we don't know 

421
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:44,240
what it's like to be stuck out 
on a boat, dying, starving. 

422
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,600
You start to lose your mind and 
you're not thinking straight. 

423
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,600
And this is where this whole 
story and what you write in your

424
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,280
book comes into play with the 
ethics and the morals and the 

425
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:57,920
how this whole practice was 
seen. 

426
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:04,040
Time, the morality of taking 
such action to save three people

427
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:07,920
when you can sacrifice 1. 
And when was that proper? 

428
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,960
When wasn't it? 
That's really the whole crux of 

429
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,600
this story, as it's going to 
play out legally anyway. 

430
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:18,200
So this is really the turning 
point. 

431
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:23,160
So we have Captain Dudley and 
Edwin Stevens and Edmund Brooks 

432
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,120
are still alive. 
Dudley's killed Richard Parker. 

433
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:30,480
They have some food to eat, 
let's just say, but they're 

434
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,600
still stuck out in the Atlantic.
What kind of struggles did they 

435
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:35,920
face even after they killed 
Richard Parker? 

436
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,880
Yeah, well, it's very rough 
being in this tiny little boat, 

437
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,240
this tiny little lifeboat on a 
raging sea that, remember, has 

438
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,160
already destroyed their much 
bigger boats. 

439
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:48,480
They're very worried about will 
the boat itself be, you know, 

440
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,480
vanquished by the waves. 
And you've got to think there's 

441
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:53,800
a very good chance of that. 
They're also worried about 

442
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:55,680
sharks. 
On the first night, there was a 

443
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,760
shark that the first night in 
the lifeboat that began rabbing 

444
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:00,840
from underneath and nearly 
capsized the lifeboat. 

445
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,960
They've asked to eat the shark 
off off, but they were worried 

446
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:05,800
that another shark would destroy
the lifeboat. 

447
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,200
But mainly they were worried 
about where would their 

448
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,120
salvation come from. 
They were very far from any 

449
00:25:11,120 --> 00:25:12,760
land. 
They kept hoping, well maybe 

450
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:16,680
we'll survive and we'll be able 
to hit land and and disembark. 

451
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:18,880
But that was hundreds and 
hundreds of miles away in any 

452
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:20,560
direction. 
They were also hoping maybe 

453
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,760
passing ship would see them, but
that the odds on that were also 

454
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,360
maybe not so great because there
weren't that many ships. 

455
00:25:26,360 --> 00:25:27,920
They were just a little snack on
the ocean. 

456
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,080
Maybe the ship would go by and 
not even see them. 

457
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,600
So they're not so optimistic at 
this point. 

458
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:35,640
And in fact, the captain had 
only been writing a letter to 

459
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:38,360
his wife, you know, that he 
hooked she would get upon his 

460
00:25:38,360 --> 00:25:39,760
death thing. 
Or, you know, he was really 

461
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:40,880
thinking this was not going to 
work out. 

462
00:25:41,120 --> 00:25:43,440
But as it happens, it's even 
work out for them. 

463
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,400
It's going to be a German ship 
that was passing by. 

464
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,560
When they saw it, they did 
whatever they could to attract 

465
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:51,040
its attention, which was very 
little. 

466
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:54,040
They didn't have any flares or, 
you know, they they couldn't get

467
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:56,240
up high on a, you know, in a 
bird's nest because they were 

468
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:58,120
just going to work with it. 
The captain happened to be 

469
00:25:58,120 --> 00:26:01,120
looking through his binoculars 
and saw them and he made a 

470
00:26:01,120 --> 00:26:02,400
decision to rescue them, which 
he. 

471
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,480
So in the end, it all works out 
quite well for them. 

472
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,360
They are in terrible shape. 
They're they're barely able to 

473
00:26:09,360 --> 00:26:11,080
walk. 
They need help getting onto the 

474
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:13,200
ship. 
They need to be fed and get in 

475
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,240
water very slowly. 
So it's not a shock to their 

476
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,120
very, very damaged systems. 
But they get onto the boat and 

477
00:26:18,120 --> 00:26:21,280
they are nursed back to health 
and they happily tell everyone 

478
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:23,200
just what happened, what they 
did to the cabin boy. 

479
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:25,920
Because as I mentioned before, 
this was the custom of the sea 

480
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,800
and it had done for centuries. 
And they didn't think it would 

481
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,360
be down to their disadvantage at
all to tell the truth. 

482
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:36,360
So they're picked up by the 
German bark, and 23 days after 

483
00:26:36,360 --> 00:26:39,000
the sinking of the Mignonette, 
they're finally returned to 

484
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,800
Falmouth. 
And Dudley, as he's supposed to 

485
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:45,760
do as captain, reports to the 
Custom House to report that the 

486
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:50,640
Midianette was lost and he was 
not concerned at all about what 

487
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:52,720
had happened. 
So why was he so confident? 

488
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:55,880
Well, you know, it really was a 
matter of precedent, right? 

489
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:59,000
It's that this had been going on
for centuries and no one had 

490
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:00,240
ever gotten in trouble for it, 
right? 

491
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,200
I mean, it was, you know, had 
this name, the custom of the 

492
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:04,560
sea. 
There were, you know, sea 

493
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:06,400
shanties about it. 
That it was, you know, it was in

494
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:07,840
the works of literature I 
mentioned earlier. 

495
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,960
So as, as they saw, they were 
just participating in a long 

496
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,240
sailing tradition that had, you 
know, history behind it and to 

497
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:16,640
an extent, law behind it, right?
There was never any case that 

498
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:18,240
actually said you're allowed to 
do this. 

499
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,040
But there were centuries in 
which this was going on, and no 

500
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,440
one had ever been prosecuted. 
No one had ever been convicted 

501
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:27,000
of a crime for doing this, so 
they just thought it was the way

502
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:28,320
the world worked and it was 
fine. 

503
00:27:28,360 --> 00:27:32,920
And then suddenly they are 
thrown into a jail and told 

504
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:35,520
that, you know, there would be a
hearing to see if they were 

505
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,840
going to be charged with murder.
What prompted Dudley, Stevens 

506
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,640
and Brooks to be arrested? 
Yeah, so it's an interesting 

507
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:44,840
question. 
There were some laws that were 

508
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:49,040
passed in the middle of that 
century, the mid 1800s, which 

509
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:50,920
was a great period of reform, 
right? 

510
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,320
It was the Victorian era. 
And, you know, we think of 

511
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:55,880
Victorians as being, you know, 
prudes and things like that. 

512
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,320
But they were also real 
reformers. 

513
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:02,480
And they did things like pass 
laws to extend the votes to the 

514
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:07,360
middle class, to factory safety 
laws, laws protecting women and 

515
00:28:07,360 --> 00:28:10,720
children and animals from abuse.
So they were reforming of 

516
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:13,080
society. 
They were reforming the law of 

517
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,760
the sea as well. 
So in mid century they began to 

518
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:22,360
enact laws that said if there's 
a shipwreck, it is required that

519
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:26,200
local officials where the the 
survivors arrive, do an 

520
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,640
investigation of the shipwreck 
to determine what the causes 

521
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,120
were and so forth, but also 
whether any crimes have been 

522
00:28:32,120 --> 00:28:35,480
committed. 
So under the aegis of that law, 

523
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:40,080
they were required to 
investigate and the mayor and 

524
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,880
the local officials decided that
this may be a crime. 

525
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:49,160
They actually held the men while
they asked London where the home

526
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,640
secretary was the highest 
ranking criminal officer in the 

527
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:54,920
in the country. 
They asked the home secretary's 

528
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:57,440
office, what should we do? 
Because it seemed like this 

529
00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,960
might be a crime under these, 
you know, laws that were enacted

530
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,880
in the mid century. 
And the home Secretary's 

531
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,960
response is that it should be 
prosecuted. 

532
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:11,440
In your book, one of your 
chapters is titled A Bad Time to

533
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,520
be a Cannibal, and I was 
thinking, well, is there ever a 

534
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:18,160
good time? 
But as it pertains to this case 

535
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,400
at this time in history, why was
this an appropriate chapter 

536
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:22,400
title? 
You know, you mentioned the 

537
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:25,160
reforms. 
What was going on that prompted 

538
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:28,600
the English law enforcement to 
to go after these three men? 

539
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,800
Yeah, so I really do try to put 
it in the context of a very much

540
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,400
changing England. 
And so one of the changes was 

541
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:39,640
that that these Victorian 
reformers were trying to bring 

542
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,280
progress of various kinds to all
parts of society. 

543
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:44,640
And one thing they were doing 
was trying to make it more 

544
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:48,000
civilized in many ways. 
And something like the custom of

545
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:52,120
the sea stood out for being not 
very civilized, kind of barbaric

546
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:54,560
and the kind of thing the 
Victorian reformers wouldn't 

547
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:56,160
like. 
And there were other things 

548
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:57,600
about it that they didn't like 
as well. 

549
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,360
During the Victorian era, there 
was something they called the 

550
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:02,920
cult of the child. 
They worshipped children. 

551
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,080
And, you know, books like Alice 
in Wonderland come out of 

552
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:08,600
Victorian England where they 
just, you know, idealized 

553
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:09,880
children. 
Oliver Twist. 

554
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,320
So he didn't like the idea of a 
bunch of, you know, adults on 

555
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:15,560
the ship deciding, you know, 
let's kill the cabin boy. 

556
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,080
But another really interesting 
thing that was going on was 

557
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:22,360
1883, which is the year before 
this happened, the most 

558
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:27,000
prominent historian in England 
wrote a book in which he wrote 

559
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:31,000
about the British Empire, and it
contained the phrase England 

560
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,080
acquired its empire and a feat 
of absent mindedness. 

561
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,800
And that was really a very 
disingenuous thing to say, that 

562
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,560
he was sort of saying, oh, 
somehow we end up controlling 

563
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,320
1/4 of the world. 
We didn't really think about it 

564
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:44,840
or mean to. 
Of course there were a lot of 

565
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:49,000
people who were very much trying
to take over the world for, you 

566
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:50,840
know, colonialism and 
imperialism. 

567
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,360
But in any case, it it prompted 
a big discussion in England in 

568
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:58,200
1883 and 1884 about why do we 
have this big empire? 

569
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,400
What is the purpose? 
And of course, what people 

570
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:04,040
wanted to say was the purpose 
was to uplift the rest of the 

571
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:05,800
world. 
We're not doing it in order to 

572
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:09,920
steal and pillage and get rich. 
We're doing it to bring 

573
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:14,000
Christianity and English values 
to the whole world. 

574
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:18,400
So this was the ethos in 1884. 
And when you think about what 

575
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,840
was the thing that England was 
trying to uplift the world from,

576
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,960
what kind of barbarism? 
Well, one of the biggest markers

577
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,760
of that was cannibalism. 
So in books like Robinson Crusoe

578
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:32,240
and others, they portrayed the 
other parts of the world as 

579
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,200
being barbaric because among 
other things, they engaged in 

580
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,080
cannibalism. 
And they were now saying in 18 

581
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:42,480
four, 1884 that this is the sort
of thing that our, our wonderful

582
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,280
imperialist project is going to 
lift the world up from. 

583
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:50,000
So I do say, you know, somewhat 
wryly that 1884 was the worst 

584
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,320
year in the world in which to 
suddenly come to England, as the

585
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:55,960
three survivors did, and say, 
hey, we're English and we're 

586
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:57,800
cannibals. 
Because everyone, anyone was 

587
00:31:57,800 --> 00:31:59,840
saying, no, no, English people 
are cannibals. 

588
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:02,560
The Barbarians are, we're the 
ones who lift people up from 

589
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,080
that. 
So, as I say, it was a bad time 

590
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:08,120
to try to get sympathy as an 
English cannibal. 

591
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:13,040
And this wasn't too long after 
the 1845 Franklin expedition, 

592
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:16,880
which, as it turned out, 
actually did contain some 

593
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,880
cannibalism. 
And at the time, they were more 

594
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,680
rumors and reports of 
cannibalism that, like, Lady 

595
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:27,040
Jane Franklin and the newspapers
didn't want to believe. 

596
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:29,720
They didn't want to believe that
such, you know, Englishmen, 

597
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,120
gentlemen would resort to such 
barbarism. 

598
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:36,600
And so this is only, you know, 
roughly 40 years later and 

599
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:40,840
trying to maybe move away from 
that conception, like you said, 

600
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,560
separate themselves from that 
whole concept of of cannibalism.

601
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:48,920
So these men, they're charged, 
they are arrested and there's 

602
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:51,520
going to be an inquiry here in 
in Falmouth. 

603
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:55,240
So what evidence was presented 
and what was the result of this 

604
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:58,480
initial inquiry? 
Well, you know, it was pretty 

605
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:02,120
easy for the prosecutors because
when the men were picked up, 

606
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,920
they were brought to the custom 
house and they were questioned 

607
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:08,320
about the shipwreck because, as 
I mentioned, by law now, it was 

608
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:12,400
required for local officials to 
do an investigation of every 

609
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:14,600
shipwreck. 
And the men spoke freely. 

610
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,520
They filled out forms or had 
them filled out for them, in 

611
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:19,640
which they described what 
happened, including the killing 

612
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,600
and eating with the cabin boy. 
And then afterwards the captain 

613
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,800
spoke with one of the local 
officials in an informal way and

614
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:28,280
told the entire story because 
again, they thought they had 

615
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,360
nothing to fear. 
So all of that was on the 

616
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,000
record. 
They we really had confessions, 

617
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:37,440
so to speak, from the main 
people being charged. 

618
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,760
So it wasn't very hard to for 
the government to come up with 

619
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,000
the facts. 
It became much more a matter of 

620
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,000
do these facts as presented 
constitute a crime? 

621
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:47,640
And that's what they were really
wrestling with. 

622
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:23,520
Extravagante 
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623
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:28,120
extravagante. 
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And at that point, the case was 

632
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:01,000
handed over to the Exeter 
Assizes Court. 

633
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:03,760
Can you explain a little bit 
about that system? 

634
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:07,880
Or you know what that assizes 
court was for including me who 

635
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,200
are unfamiliar. 
Sure. 

636
00:35:10,240 --> 00:35:14,280
Back then this was seen as a way
of bringing justice really to 

637
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:16,720
the provinces, right? 
Because there wasn't the 

638
00:35:16,720 --> 00:35:20,040
assumption that there would be 
enough really fine judges and 

639
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:23,400
great judicial process in all 
the hinterlands of England. 

640
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:27,760
So they would bring in esteemed 
judges from from London to 

641
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:32,160
localities during different 
parts of the year and they would

642
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:37,320
hold court sessions in which 
they would kind of do a lot of 

643
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:39,440
the judging that needed to be 
done. 

644
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:43,800
So in this case, there was the 
the sizes were, were coming up 

645
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,120
in Exeter, as you say, which was
I think like about 100 miles 

646
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:49,720
away. 
And there was a judge who came 

647
00:35:49,720 --> 00:35:52,800
down from London, a very 
esteemed judge, who was going to

648
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:56,320
preside over this case. 
And that's sort of the first 

649
00:35:56,320 --> 00:36:01,200
step in all of this, the kind of
unusual way in which this judge,

650
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:05,840
Baron Huddleston from London, 
decides to treat the case of 

651
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:09,600
Dudley and Stevens. 
You describe him as a being a 

652
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:13,800
strong judge or a tough judge. 
What did he do during this 

653
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:17,600
proceeding in the Assizes court 
that was a little unusual or, 

654
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:19,760
you know, made him out to be a 
tough judge? 

655
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:24,440
Yeah, so he was a judge who 
liked to get his way, and he was

656
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:27,360
sort of famous for kind of 
persuading juries to do what he 

657
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:29,920
wanted. 
But he also was one of these, as

658
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:33,800
I say, Victorian reformers. 
He wasn't just a judge who kind 

659
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,560
of went into court every day and
just heard the evidence. 

660
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:39,000
OK, which which side has more 
evidence on his side? 

661
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:42,160
He wasn't that kind of judge. 
He had a kind of moral vision. 

662
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:45,400
And his moral vision, like for 
many of the children reformers 

663
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,600
was one that said things like 
killing and even the Catholic 

664
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:52,640
boy are not good. 
So this is a problem because, 

665
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:56,080
you know, it turns out when the 
survivors come back to form with

666
00:36:56,240 --> 00:37:00,360
a schism appears very quickly, 
which was that working class 

667
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:04,600
people, the sailors, the general
populace was largely on their 

668
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:07,320
side. 
And it was more the elites, the 

669
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:11,440
judges, lawyers, some of the 
editorial writers, people like 

670
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:15,320
that who thought that the that 
the system need to be reformed 

671
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:17,960
and that this should be a crime.
So when we have these early 

672
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:21,240
hearings, a lot of people show 
up, a lot of working class 

673
00:37:21,240 --> 00:37:23,840
people, sailors, people like 
that, and they're on the side of

674
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,800
the cannibals. 
So this is a problem for Baron 

675
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:31,040
Huddleston because there's a 
grand jury at Exeter. 

676
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:34,680
And then if the grand jury 
chooses to to indict, then 

677
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:38,360
they'll be a jury. 
And it's quite possible that 

678
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:42,480
these juries, which are taken 
from not a representative sample

679
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,720
of people, but nevertheless from
the populace, might be very 

680
00:37:45,720 --> 00:37:49,640
sympathetic to the defendants. 
So what the what the judge 

681
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:53,680
decides to do is use a very 
unusual procedure called the 

682
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:56,440
special verdict, which actually 
had not been used in almost 100 

683
00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:59,200
years. 
The special verdict allowed for 

684
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:02,840
him to say that the jury that 
heard the case in Exeter would 

685
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:05,680
just find the facts. 
They would come up with a 

686
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:08,200
statement of what they found to 
be the facts of the case. 

687
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:13,760
Then later he would find a judge
or set of judges somewhere to be

688
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,960
named later that would decide 
whether those facts constitute 

689
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:19,840
your crime. 
And he that's how he perceived 

690
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:22,520
it. 
So in all we get is a jury 

691
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,600
saying what the facts of the 
case are, and then there's a 

692
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:29,920
whole separate process set up 
later for judges to decide 

693
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:33,640
whether or not that was a crime.
Now, this special verdict, 

694
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:37,120
reading through it myself, I was
trying to follow because as far 

695
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:40,240
as I know, we don't have 
anything like that in the United

696
00:38:40,240 --> 00:38:42,880
States. 
Even in England at the time, you

697
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:44,960
said they hadn't used it in 100 
years. 

698
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:49,800
So, yeah, it's very bizarre for 
him to do it. 

699
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:53,040
And especially excellent 
description that you provide. 

700
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:58,000
It seems just like a complete 
travesty of justice that, you 

701
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:01,400
know, he doesn't even allow the,
the defense to present any 

702
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:05,120
evidence or testimony and he 
just tells the jury this is 

703
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:08,520
what's going to happen. 
And, and it happens. 

704
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,400
And then it's, it's going 
through to the higher court to 

705
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:13,440
be decided. 
And, and like you said, he's a 

706
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:15,720
strong judge, tough judge. 
He had a vision. 

707
00:39:15,720 --> 00:39:19,400
And from my untrained 
perspective, it's, it seemed 

708
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,480
like a really terrible way of, 
of carrying out justice. 

709
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:25,040
Very heavy. 
I mean, the one thing I would 

710
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:28,520
say in defense of it, and it's 
not a full defense, but there 

711
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:32,200
are procedures even today that 
we have that acknowledge that 

712
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:36,160
sometimes a jury is going to be 
biased and that the justice 

713
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,400
system requires that the 
ultimate decision be made by a 

714
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,440
decided that isn't biased. 
So one example of this is that 

715
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,200
sometimes we have trials moved 
right out of a jurisdiction 

716
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:48,880
because we decide that a jury 
has been prejudice by the media 

717
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:51,240
or something like that and it 
will be moved to another 

718
00:39:51,240 --> 00:39:53,720
jurisdiction. 
And you might say, well, no, I 

719
00:39:53,720 --> 00:39:55,480
mean, it occurred in this 
jurisdiction and let the jury 

720
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:57,080
decide. 
But no, because we just we 

721
00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:00,320
decided under under our system 
as well that the ultimate goal 

722
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:03,160
of the justice system is getting
the fair and right answer. 

723
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:06,920
So in a way, I think that was 
one of the things going on when 

724
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:09,880
they did adopt the special 
verdict, you know, many years 

725
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:13,000
earlier, the idea that the most 
important thing was that the 

726
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:15,480
decision be made by people who 
would be fair and objective. 

727
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:18,480
But in this case, it didn't go 
to another jury as we might do 

728
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:21,120
here in America. 
It went to a set of judges. 

729
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:23,000
And that was again what the 
procedures. 

730
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:26,480
Was allowed, but Baron 
Huddleston no doubt had an 

731
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:30,720
instinct that the elite judges 
would be more likely to come 

732
00:40:30,720 --> 00:40:33,680
down against the custom of the 
sea than any jury would. 

733
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:35,600
Yeah. 
And I think it's important to to

734
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:38,200
point out that at this point, 
Brooks had been dropped from the

735
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:41,120
charges and he was actually used
as a witness for the 

736
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:44,280
prosecution. 
What was the rationale behind 

737
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:46,600
that? 
Yeah, so he's originally 

738
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:48,760
arrested and thrown in jail. 
There are three of them in jail.

739
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:51,800
And you do think, boy, that's 
not really right because, you 

740
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:55,280
know, as I mentioned, he said 
all along he did not want this 

741
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:56,920
to happen. 
He covered his head. 

742
00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:00,440
And once they really realized 
the facts of what occurred, they

743
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,880
did drop the charge against 
Brooks, both because he was 

744
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:06,680
really not legally, morally 
culpable. 

745
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:10,200
He wasn't part of the murder but
also helped them that they had a

746
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:13,040
live eyewitness because I 
mentioned that they had the 

747
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:17,160
statements of the defendants, 
what they did, but it was 

748
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:20,040
unclear at the beginning whether
those would absolutely be 

749
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:22,000
admissible in court. 
Always great to have an 

750
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:23,720
eyewitness, which they had with 
Brooks. 

751
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:28,800
So Brooks ends up being, I would
say, not an enthusiastic 

752
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,000
witness. 
He liked the captain and the 

753
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:33,920
meat and and even though he 
didn't want them to kill the 

754
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:37,720
cabin boy, he wasn't excited 
about testifying them in a way, 

755
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:40,400
I guess in a way that could lead
to them being hanged. 

756
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:44,840
So he did say some positive 
things about them as people, as 

757
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:48,440
as a witness, but he also was 
very honest about what what he 

758
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:51,040
saw in her. 
So as a result of this special 

759
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:53,440
verdict, you mentioned, it's 
going to be passed up to the 

760
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:56,440
higher court, basically a panel 
of, of judges. 

761
00:41:56,960 --> 00:42:01,600
And Huddleston decides or 
insists really that it should go

762
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:05,160
to his own court, the Court of 
Queens Bench of the High Court 

763
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:07,040
of Justice. 
That's a mouthful. 

764
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:11,360
That's what was this court and 
and how was it structured? 

765
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:16,280
Yeah, so it seems like what was 
really happening is that the 

766
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:20,160
Lord Chief Justice, Lord 
College, seems to have had an 

767
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:22,160
eye on this case all along. 
And. 

768
00:42:22,720 --> 00:42:26,960
And so when Huddleston says to 
the jury in Exeter, OK, you 

769
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:29,400
know, thank you for the 
statement of facts. 

770
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:33,000
So it will find a set of judges 
that will decide the case. 

771
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:36,560
It turns out that this is going 
to be in the Lord Chief 

772
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:39,680
Justice's own courtroom in the 
Court of Queen's Bench. 

773
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:43,800
The Lord Chief Justice will be 
one of the the judges on this 

774
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:46,640
panel and he'll choose the other
people on the panel, which he 

775
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:49,960
did mainly by seniority, but he 
also included Baron Huddleston. 

776
00:42:50,240 --> 00:42:53,520
And the Lord Chief Justice ends 
up writing the the opinion in 

777
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:56,040
the case. 
So it does look like Baron 

778
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:57,920
Huddleston sort of took care of 
things in Exeter. 

779
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:00,840
But it looks like the Lord Chief
Justice really takes over the 

780
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:05,720
case and is the one who decides 
how he'll be the be decided and 

781
00:43:05,720 --> 00:43:07,600
then also what the verdict will 
be. 

782
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:11,600
And he's another, as I say of 
these Victorian reformers, like 

783
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,920
Baron Huddleston, like the Home 
Secretary, he's somewhat in a 

784
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:18,440
very strong moral vision that 
what occurred in the lifeboat 

785
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:23,160
was wrong and he set up a 
process that allowed that to be 

786
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:24,800
the ultimate decision in the 
case. 

787
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,400
Now at this trial, as you've 
said previously, there's no 

788
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:31,520
doubt about the facts of the 
case, Dudley admitted. 

789
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:35,160
Everything that happened, it was
really just a question of is it 

790
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:37,240
a crime? 
But did the defense at this 

791
00:43:37,240 --> 00:43:40,520
point attempt any? 
Do they have a strategy? 

792
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:42,600
Do they they try to argue a 
point. 

793
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:47,200
They actually had a reasonable 
argument, which was what was 

794
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:50,480
called the necessity defense, 
which there was a little bit of 

795
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:54,280
support for, not a lot, and it 
wasn't clear how viable it was. 

796
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:58,280
But the general idea is that, 
and we have this in America as 

797
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:02,120
well, necessity defense says 
that if you commit a crime, but 

798
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:06,080
you're doing it to avoid a much 
greater harm, sometimes that 

799
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:08,800
won't be penalized. 
So like a classic example would 

800
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:13,640
be if there's a fire in a prison
and the prisoners run out and 

801
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:16,680
escape, if you charge them with 
escaping from prison, they could

802
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:19,920
say, no, we didn't. 
So, you know, we didn't all burn

803
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,520
up and die. 
Or if you have a very, very sick

804
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:25,000
baby and you don't have a way to
get into the hospital and 

805
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:27,680
there's a car out right in front
of your house with keys in the 

806
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:29,720
ignition. 
It's not your car, but you take 

807
00:44:29,720 --> 00:44:32,600
the baby to the hospital in this
car if you're charged later with

808
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:34,560
stealing the car. 
And you might be able to say, 

809
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:37,320
no, I was doing it to save the 
baby's life. 

810
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:40,760
These are cases in which the law
might allow necessity, defense 

811
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:43,840
and say this was not a crime 
because it avoided a greater 

812
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:45,600
harm. 
So what they were arguing is 

813
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:50,280
that in the lifeboat, killing 
the cabin boy to save 3 lives 

814
00:44:50,720 --> 00:44:54,160
should not be viewed as a crime.
It should be viewed as taking 

815
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:57,400
the lesser of two evils. 
And that necessity should be 

816
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:01,840
deemed to excuse this. 
It was a decent argument and it 

817
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:04,800
was one that the court, you 
know, really injected. 

818
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:08,920
In your book, too, there is, I 
think it was the attorney 

819
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:10,880
general. 
His feeling was that, you know, 

820
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:14,960
they they had to be found guilty
because otherwise they would 

821
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:19,080
just have Mariners deciding to 
kill whoever they want because 

822
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:21,880
they're hungry. 
Well, yes, in fact, you're 

823
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:24,320
exactly the home secretary. 
Sorry, the attorney general, 

824
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:26,920
you're right. 
He actually said in a letter to 

825
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:30,360
the home secretary, if we don't 
prosecute them, I shall always 

826
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:33,120
be nervous sitting next to a 
hungry man, you know? 

827
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:36,000
So yes, he was saying we need, 
we need to discourage just 

828
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:38,200
wanting just people turning 
around and eating the people 

829
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:41,400
that are right next to them. 
But at the same time, once there

830
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:44,160
was a conviction, he felt that 
they shouldn't be punished. 

831
00:45:44,240 --> 00:45:48,240
Something that you know becomes 
another big issue in the case is

832
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:52,960
once you find that this was 
murder under British law at the 

833
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:57,160
time, murder had only one 
penalty, which was hanging. 

834
00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:00,760
And then the question is, is 
this how we want these two men 

835
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:04,320
to to end up for this crime that
we've now determined to be 

836
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:07,440
murder, but certainly a very 
unusual kind of murder? 

837
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:20,240
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853
00:47:12,720 --> 00:47:14,600
And so they, they are sentenced 
to death. 

854
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:18,360
But as you said, there's a, you 
know, there's a still a pretty 

855
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:21,560
strong public sentiment that 
they shouldn't have been charged

856
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:24,120
at all. 
Many believe that they would get

857
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:28,440
a pardon or a reduced sentence 
from Queen Victoria, which was 

858
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:31,840
really their only reprieve. 
But there was no guarantee of 

859
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:34,920
that. 
Well, I think that even many of 

860
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:38,640
the people who felt that this 
was a crime, that this was 

861
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:42,640
murder, that this must be 
punished, also felt this isn't a

862
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:46,360
crime like just going up to 
someone and that you don't like 

863
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:48,800
and, you know, and stabbing them
to death because you don't like 

864
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:51,400
them. 
This was, you know, very, very 

865
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:54,680
extreme extenuating 
circumstances that the men were 

866
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:58,000
kind of, as you pointed out 
earlier, kind of in a frenzied, 

867
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:00,640
mad stage. 
And then also they were making a

868
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:03,360
calculation that they were 
trying to save more lives and 

869
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:06,440
would otherwise be saved. 
So to a lot of people, even 

870
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:09,400
people who thought this should 
be deemed a crime, they didn't 

871
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:12,000
think it was really, really 
serious murder. 

872
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:15,200
And this was reflected in some 
of the editorials that ran at 

873
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:18,240
the time, which some of which 
said they should be convicted, 

874
00:48:18,240 --> 00:48:21,480
but they shouldn't be hanged. 
So the Lord Chief Justice finds 

875
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:23,680
them guilty of murder, sentences
them to death. 

876
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:26,520
But people notice he didn't wear
the black cap. 

877
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:30,240
And the tradition was that when 
a judge was sentencing someone 

878
00:48:30,240 --> 00:48:33,000
to death, they wore the black 
cap and they said a few special 

879
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:35,680
words about their souls. 
He did not do that. 

880
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:39,880
So people thought he probably 
has a feeling that this is not 

881
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:41,520
going to really end up in their 
death. 

882
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:44,720
But as you pointed out, the next
step is it goes to Queen 

883
00:48:44,720 --> 00:48:48,240
Victoria, which in in this case 
really meant to the home 

884
00:48:48,240 --> 00:48:50,840
secretary, who was the one who 
made recommendations to the 

885
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:53,360
queen, which were almost 
invariably followed. 

886
00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:56,600
And it really comes down to this
third Victorian reformer. 

887
00:48:56,600 --> 00:49:00,320
I mentioned the home secretary 
to decide what should the 

888
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:03,000
punishment be, and he's torn 
because he's the one who decided

889
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:06,240
it should be prosecuted. 
He didn't like this custom to 

890
00:49:06,240 --> 00:49:08,760
see at all. 
But he also was somebody who 

891
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:12,280
always had sympathy for criminal
defendants and prisoners, and he

892
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:15,680
didn't necessarily feel that, 
you know, they should be put to 

893
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:18,320
death either. 
So it really comes down to what 

894
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:19,920
will the home secretary 
recommend? 

895
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:23,400
And in the end, he does 
recommend that they be sentenced

896
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:26,520
to six months in prison rather 
than that they be hanged. 

897
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:28,640
And they serve the six months in
prison. 

898
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:31,640
Did you? 
And then then of course, as we 

899
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:35,640
mentioned earlier, Dudley has 
always been interested in going 

900
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:39,440
to Australia and that was one of
the reasons he took the mini net

901
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:41,960
job at all. 
And and sort of the ending of 

902
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:45,920
the book is him getting out of 
prison and then starting his 

903
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:49,120
life again in Australia, which 
also doesn't go so smoothly. 

904
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:51,400
What happens to him when he's 
there? 

905
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:53,160
How does his life go as a 
result? 

906
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:57,160
Yes and the very odd thing is he
goes there and he had been 

907
00:49:57,160 --> 00:50:00,560
offered earlier much earlier 
before the Mignonette to take 

908
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:07,480
over a like a sailing shop that 
his that his aunt ran in Sydney 

909
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:08,840
and he was interested in doing 
that. 

910
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:11,240
He goes to Australia. 
He does take over the shop, 

911
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:15,080
builds it up pretty 
successfully, has a good number 

912
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:19,120
of staff doing very well, gets 
other family members to move 

913
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:20,920
over. 
His own family grows. 

914
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:24,120
So his life is going pretty well
and he actually then just to 

915
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:27,520
live down the whole minionette 
thing, like people do not 

916
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:31,000
necessarily know him as the 
captain who killed and ate the 

917
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:32,840
cabin boy. 
So he's started his life all 

918
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:36,040
over again from 1884 to about 
1900. 

919
00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:42,520
Then a bubonic plague epidemic 
strikes Asia and it's spread by 

920
00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:45,960
ships throughout Asia, which 
means it really is very 

921
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:49,200
prevalent in ports, ports like 
Sydney and particularly around 

922
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:52,640
the waterfront, which is where 
Dudley's shop was. 

923
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:57,160
So he he actually contracts this
bubonic plague when he's in his 

924
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:00,880
in his shop and and home there, 
which are right on the the porch

925
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:05,560
and really oddly becomes the 
very first person in Australia. 

926
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:08,440
It's a guy of bubonic plague, 
the number one. 

927
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:11,760
And yeah, yeah. 
So that's very, you know, sort 

928
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:14,920
of an odd twist. 
And and as you point out that in

929
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:19,200
the official report on the on 
the gronic plague, it mentions 

930
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:22,080
that he's the first person to 
die and it calls him Thomas 

931
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:26,560
Dudley, sail maker. 
So it actually his whole past as

932
00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:29,880
being a captain and a captain 
who ate a cabin boy and all that

933
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:33,960
is pretty much gone. 
He's really it made it, you 

934
00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:36,800
know, as you mentioned earlier, 
people moved to Australia to get

935
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:38,840
a new start in life. 
He had done that. 

936
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:41,800
But somehow he does end up 
dying. 

937
00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:45,600
And, you know, you could say if 
you have a certain sense of 

938
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:48,840
justice, maybe this was the 
death sentence that he deserved 

939
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:51,080
all along. 
But any case, it didn't, it 

940
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:53,640
didn't end up well for him 
because it's not a good way to 

941
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:56,040
die. 
And ultimately, how did this 

942
00:51:56,040 --> 00:51:58,680
trial affect this whole practice
of cannibalism? 

943
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:01,280
Did this pretty much put an end 
to that as an accepted 

944
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:03,960
tradition? 
Well, you know, it discouraged 

945
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:07,080
it, but people do point out 
that, you know, it's a weird 

946
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:10,320
kind of decision to have 
because, you know, if you're in 

947
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:14,280
the extreme conditions of being 
in a lifeboat, dying of thirst 

948
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:17,920
and you are inclined to maybe Co
and eat the cabin boy, how much 

949
00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:19,880
are you really going to think, 
well, I'm not going to do this 

950
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:21,720
because I could be prosecuted 
later? 

951
00:52:21,720 --> 00:52:24,800
So I mean, there is that 
question, but the practice ends 

952
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:28,280
up dying out, I would say maybe 
less because of this case than 

953
00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:30,440
because of the thing we 
mentioned in the beginning, 

954
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:33,400
which is that those steam ships 
were really coming, right? 

955
00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:35,520
And there were. 
There was less and less sailing,

956
00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:39,080
more and more steamships. 
And steamships were just not 

957
00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:42,760
getting into the same level of 
shipwrecks where people, you 

958
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:45,520
know, are in such extreme 
conditions, unable to 

959
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:48,000
communicate that they end up 
having to cope a cabin boy. 

960
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:51,800
So I think technology is really 
what undid it. 

961
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:55,840
So the practice definitely died 
out, but the decision has had 

962
00:52:56,280 --> 00:52:59,720
other lasting implications, 
including for that necessity 

963
00:52:59,720 --> 00:53:03,200
defense that I mentioned 
earlier, because there was a bit

964
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:05,880
of a belief that there, you 
know, should be a necessity 

965
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:08,080
defense in England. 
And there was some of it, and 

966
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:09,560
there was quite a bit of it in 
America. 

967
00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:13,440
It was fairly well established. 
This case really turned the tide

968
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:17,400
and now we pretty much have a 
rule of America, not entirely, 

969
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:21,240
but pretty much that you can 
never plead necessity to a 

970
00:53:21,240 --> 00:53:23,960
charge of murder. 
And as I mentioned, if you steal

971
00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:26,440
a car to save a baby's life, you
could plead necessity. 

972
00:53:26,720 --> 00:53:30,560
But in most jurisdictions now 
you can't say that I killed 

973
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:32,960
someone to avoid more people 
dying. 

974
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:36,760
And that really is a direct 
result of this, that way the 

975
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:40,040
Siegel's case. 
I was provided A complimentary 

976
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:42,560
advance copy of your book by 
your publishers. 

977
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:46,240
Thank you, and I devoured it 
within just a couple of nights. 

978
00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:51,040
I was really impressed by the 
quality and quantity of the 

979
00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:53,080
research that you provide in the
book. 

980
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:56,720
What primary sources were you 
able to access to do your 

981
00:53:56,720 --> 00:53:59,320
research? 
Yeah, You know, it was a really 

982
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:02,880
fun book to research. 
Most of it was in the National 

983
00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:06,440
Archives in London. 
And I went there right before 

984
00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:08,080
the pandemic. 
Then I couldn't go there for a 

985
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:09,640
while, but then I got to go back
again. 

986
00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:12,600
That went a number of times. 
And as I mentioned, things like 

987
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:16,520
the ship papers where they where
they filled out, where doubly 

988
00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:19,720
filled out what food he was 
provided that is there like 

989
00:54:19,720 --> 00:54:22,840
things like that. 
The, the, yeah, the, the list 

990
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:27,360
of, of, of crew is there with 
their names and ages. 

991
00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:31,600
The, but depositions where they 
say what they did, including 

992
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:34,760
Captain Dudley wrote a series of
kind of lengthy handwritten 

993
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:37,920
accounts while he was on that 
ship, the German ship on his way

994
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:40,480
back to Falmouth, he wrote out 
what happened. 

995
00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:42,320
Those are there. 
So it's amazing to be able to 

996
00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:45,160
hold in your hands these actual 
words of the cannibals. 

997
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:48,160
And they're they're right there.
And then court transcripts as 

998
00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:50,240
well. 
And then I have this great real 

999
00:54:50,240 --> 00:54:53,680
boondoggle, which is because of 
the pandemic, the New York 

1000
00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:57,440
Public Library decided to put 
all of their British newspaper 

1001
00:54:57,440 --> 00:55:00,040
archives online. 
Used to be you had to go to the 

1002
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:01,720
library and sort of read them 
there. 

1003
00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:05,120
And so during the pandemic, I 
was able to read an incredible 

1004
00:55:05,120 --> 00:55:08,480
number of contemporary 
resources, you know, right from 

1005
00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:12,600
the comfort of my own home from 
1884, which made it just much 

1006
00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:15,120
easier to really dig into the 
details. 

1007
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:18,080
Yeah, like I said, really 
impressive. 

1008
00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:21,280
Just the the level of detail 
which you know, is far surpasses

1009
00:55:21,280 --> 00:55:25,760
anything we were able to discuss
in this in this podcast episode.

1010
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:28,800
But you know, going into the 
families of the the characters 

1011
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:32,840
in the story, Dudley's wife and 
her family and Richard Parker 

1012
00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:35,800
and also the background of legal
team. 

1013
00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:38,120
And we didn't even really talk 
about the defense team that 

1014
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:41,040
Dudley and and Stevens were able
to to hire. 

1015
00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:44,640
There's so much detail. 
They are very rich description 

1016
00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:47,440
of what it was like starting off
in Falmouth and then moving to 

1017
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:51,360
Exeter and then finally London. 
So really just a great job on 

1018
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:53,520
that. 
One of my favorite shipwreck 

1019
00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:56,440
books I've ever I've ever read. 
And it really is more of a legal

1020
00:55:56,720 --> 00:55:58,800
legal story than a shipwreck 
story, so. 

1021
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:00,720
Thank you so much for this kind 
work. 

1022
00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:03,680
I understand you even spent a 
night in a jail cell. 

1023
00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:07,920
I did indeed. 
So the first time I went to work

1024
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:13,280
on on this, there was a hostel. 
There still is a hostel, I don't

1025
00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:15,440
know that they still have this 
particular feature, but where 

1026
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:19,360
you could stay in an old jail 
that was actually part of the 

1027
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:22,080
courthouse that Charles Dickens 
worked in. 

1028
00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:26,160
So a very, very old jail. 
And the you could stay in like 

1029
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:28,640
sort of large group rooms, but 
you could actually get your own 

1030
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:30,160
prison cell, which is what I 
did. 

1031
00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:32,720
And it had, it had the bunk 
beds. 

1032
00:56:32,720 --> 00:56:36,160
It had a toilet which was 
covered with like laminate and 

1033
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:39,960
you use it as a luggage rack. 
And it had a metal door. 

1034
00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:42,880
They, they said the door locks, 
but we promise we won't lock you

1035
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:45,000
in. 
And I thought since my 

1036
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:48,520
characters had been sort of 
jailed quite by surprise and 

1037
00:56:48,520 --> 00:56:50,960
when, you know, when they got 
the phone with, I should maybe 

1038
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:54,440
have a little bit of that shock 
of being in jail overnight. 

1039
00:56:54,440 --> 00:56:56,000
So I did. 
I did do that, yes. 

1040
00:56:57,240 --> 00:56:59,000
You, you throw yourself into the
role. 

1041
00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:01,600
I did indeed method acting, 
yeah. 

1042
00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:06,400
Where can listeners find and 
purchase Captain's Dinner? 

1043
00:57:07,720 --> 00:57:09,600
It's available in bookstores 
everywhere. 

1044
00:57:09,600 --> 00:57:13,280
It comes out November 18th. 
It's available for pre-order on 

1045
00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:16,200
Amazon and other places. 
You can place an order now and 

1046
00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:19,360
whatever discount you'll get on 
the day it comes out, they will 

1047
00:57:19,360 --> 00:57:21,800
they will rebate that to you 
when it when, when the book 

1048
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:24,000
comes out. 
So it's widely available, I 

1049
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:25,840
would say. 
And you know, this was really a 

1050
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:28,640
captivating story, so maybe a 
film deal on the works. 

1051
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:31,600
You know, I did just talk to you
about my agent, about that. 

1052
00:57:32,040 --> 00:57:33,960
Nothing. 
Nothing yet, but fingers 

1053
00:57:33,960 --> 00:57:35,800
crossed. 
I hope so. 

1054
00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:37,520
It'd be interesting to see. 
Thank you. 

1055
00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:40,680
Would you like to share any of 
your social media channels or 

1056
00:57:41,640 --> 00:57:43,240
other work that you're that 
you're doing? 

1057
00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:46,160
I mean, I guess the one thing I 
would mention is that my 

1058
00:57:46,160 --> 00:57:48,760
publisher's done a really 
fascinating thing that's never 

1059
00:57:48,760 --> 00:57:51,000
really been done before, which 
is they created the Sub Stack 

1060
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:53,360
just for this book. 
So if you go to Sub Stack and 

1061
00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:55,960
search for Captain's Dinner, 
there's more information about 

1062
00:57:55,960 --> 00:57:59,320
the book, some about my working 
on the book, there's some about 

1063
00:57:59,320 --> 00:58:02,120
like cannibalism, and there are 
excerpts from the book. 

1064
00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:04,120
So I would definitely recommend 
people check that out. 

1065
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:07,120
I read some of that. 
That's where I that's where I 

1066
00:58:07,160 --> 00:58:09,720
found out you spent the night. 
In the jail cells, absolutely. 

1067
00:58:09,920 --> 00:58:10,800
Yep. 
Yep. 

1068
00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:15,840
Well, once again, the book is 
Captain's Dinner by Adam Cohen. 

1069
00:58:16,120 --> 00:58:18,080
And Adam, it's been an absolute 
pleasure. 

1070
00:58:18,080 --> 00:58:19,080
Thanks for speaking. 
With you. 

1071
00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:24,960
That's going to do it for 
Captain's Dinner, the story of 

1072
00:58:24,960 --> 00:58:27,200
the mignonette. 
Thank you so much for listening.

1073
00:58:27,960 --> 00:58:30,640
Shipwrecks and Sea Dogs is 
written, edited and produced by 

1074
00:58:30,640 --> 00:58:34,240
me, Rich Napolitano. 
Original theme music is by Sean 

1075
00:58:34,240 --> 00:58:37,560
Siegfried and you can find him 
at seansiegfried.com. 

1076
00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:41,280
All back episodes, show notes, 
and show merchandise can be 

1077
00:58:41,280 --> 00:58:43,280
found at Shipwrecks and 
seadogs.com. 

1078
00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:46,480
For AD free listening, please 
join the Officers Club at 

1079
00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:50,880
patreon.com/shipwrecks Pod. 
For just $5 a month, you will 

1080
00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:54,600
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1081
00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:58,000
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That's patreon.com/shipwrecks 

1082
00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:00,280
Pod. 
Or if you'd like to support the 

1083
00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:03,520
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any amount, you may do so at 

1084
00:59:03,520 --> 00:59:08,400
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Last but not least, be sure to 

1085
00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:12,600
rate and review the show in your
podcast app and tell a friend I 

1086
00:59:12,600 --> 00:59:16,160
would very much appreciate it. 
Please join me again next time, 

1087
00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:22,240
but until then, don't forget to 
wear your life jackets.