Gales of November: The Untold Story of the Edmund Fitzgerald

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Hello and welcome to Shipwrecks
and Sea Dogs, tales of Mishaps,

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misfortune, and misadventure.

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I'm your host, Rich Napolitano.

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I'm thrilled today to have with me
author John U. Bacon to discuss his

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new book, Gales of November, the
Untold Story of the Edmund Fitzgerald.

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John, thank you so much
for being with me today.

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I appreciate it.

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Yeah, Rich, my pleasure.

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So November 10th, 2025 was the 50th
anniversary of the sinking of the Edmund

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Fitzgerald, and we're just recording
this a couple of weeks beyond that.

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Now, the event received a tremendous
amount of attention in the US

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and Canada and even beyond.

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It's one of the most well-known
shipwrecks, not just with maritime

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history enthusiasts, but really
in the general public as well.

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Uh, in your book you explain how
popular the Edmund Fitzgerald was

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in the Great Lakes communities, even
at the time while it was in service.

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It was tremendously beloved.

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So what made the Edmund Fitzgerald
so popular even in its time?

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Well, that was a bit of a surprise to
me, and frankly, Rich, 95% of what I've

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ridden over the last four years, uh,
I probably didn't know four years ago.

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Um, and I grew up here, man.

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I've written stories in the Great
Lakes, you know, for 30 years, and

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so I should, I should, should have
known more than I thought I did.

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But anyway, no, this ship was a rockstar.

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Wally was sailing, which I didn't
fully appreciate till after the fact.

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The guys in the ship told me, if
you're on the Fitzgerald, if you're

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a crew member, uh, get a haircut
because you're gonna get your pitcher

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taken at the Soo Locks in Duluth and.

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Port here on Detroit, Toledo, you name it.

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Uh, people would wait for a day
to see the ship come through

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and take your picture basically.

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So it was the longest at 7
29 feet when it was launched.

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Uh, one of the biggest cargo
holds one of the fastest.

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It's at all the, all the
records in the Great Lakes.

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Um, biggest load, fastest load, uh, most.

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Cargo per season, et cetera, and is
the most luxurious, incredibly, uh,

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for VIPs who are in the state rooms
as well as for the crew itself.

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So this is the ship you wanted to be on.

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It was the best ship out
of 300 on the Great Lakes.

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So it was in its way Titanic basically.

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So that was a bit of a rockstar
for a lot of reasons, and that,

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again, came as news to me.

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One of the things that I've read
a lot about is the, the food that

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was served on board, the Edmund
Fitzgerald, you wouldn't think so

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being a cargo ship, but the, apparently
the, the food service was exquisite.

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The, the cook and the his assistants were
fabulous and served really top notch food.

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So the, even the crew of these, uh,
of the Great Lakes cargo ships were

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desperate to get on the Edmund Fitzgerald.

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Oh, that's true.

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Yeah.

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And for a lot of reasons,
the, the living quarters.

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Now the cargo is the cargo.

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There's nothing fancy about that.

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It's a dusty, dirty place, um, when
you're carrying, uh, taite, which is

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iron ore and pellet forms basically.

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But the living quarters, they got jail
Hudsons, then the biggest departments

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store in the world in Detroit to
outfit it with plush carpeting, wood

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paneled walls, tiled bathrooms, uh,
air conditioning and, and televisions.

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And in 1958.

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Not even nice hotels, uh, in the
Midwest would have those things.

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So this was better than
a hotel room by far.

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And of course, the Galilee
was all stainless steel, which

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back then was, um, eye popping.

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Um, and they said, by all accounts,
the, the food was glorious.

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It was.

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First rate better than anything.

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Again, on the Queen Elizabeth two or
Queen Elizabeth one, uh, the cruise ships

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at the time, uh, and I've been on the
Arthur Anderson and the Wilfred Sykes,

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and those are two of the ships that
chased the eth Fitzgerald that night.

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So two of the three I've been on, and
even now, 50 years later, I ate like a

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king and I gained five pounds both times.

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So trust me, and I tell you, if you
get in one of these ships, go hungry.

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'cause they're gonna feed you
in ways you never imagined.

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And they're very, very good.

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And you ask yourself.

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Why is a, an iron ore carrier doing this?

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I mean, it's the greatest
of all jobs, basically.

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Well, they were smart.

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You wanna attract the best
captain of the Great Lakes.

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You wanna attract the
best crew at each level.

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And of course, you wanna please the VIPs.

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The VIPs happen to be your
clients in many cases.

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These are the guys who.

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Run Ford Motor Company or National
Steel, and if you give 'em something

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that they can't get for any price,
which is a five day round trip on

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one of these great ships, then you're
probably gonna keep your client.

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So that was actually a very shrewd
investment into all those amenities.

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When we think of the Edmund Fitzgerald,
obviously the, the shipwreck

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itself comes to mind and maybe huge
piles of iron ore laying on the.

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On the dock side, but, uh, you
know, it was, it was a business

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and Northwestern Mutual Life
Insurance company owned the ship.

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Chartered it out to these other
companies to do all the, uh, the

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shipping and, and to ac crew, the ships.

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But it was a business and they had these,
you know, fantastically wealthy owners of

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these mines and other clients and things.

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So they were, they were out to impress.

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So that's amazing.

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You got to meet on those other two ships.

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Well, and, and even, you know, these trips
are not as the way they were 50 years ago.

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They're all, they've all
been around 70, 80 years.

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Uh, yeah.

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But it was still pretty spectacular.

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And you're right.

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That, uh, it was a business
that was not a charity.

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So the money they spent on that was to
make more money and it worked handsomely.

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Yeah.

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Speaking of business, how, how did
the economic boom and the state of the

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shipping industry at the time result in
this state-of-the-art ship being built?

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Well back to more things that I learned.

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Shipping is three times more
efficient than trains and six

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times more efficient than trucks.

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And we're not talking Rich.

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6% or 60%.

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That's a 600% improvement.

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That's margins.

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You can't imagine.

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Those are margins.

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Those are.

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Multiplications.

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Um, so if you can take anything on
a ship versus on land, you do it.

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Uh, it's a much more economical
way to, to do these things.

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So shipping is clearly the key.

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And at this time, the Great Lakes
were the Silicon Valley before

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Silicon Valley because from world,
from World War ii, from 1945 to 1975,

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they owned the automotive industry.

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Uh, then probably the biggest
industry in the world, um,

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more than computers it today.

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Just crazy.

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Uh.

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Out of Forbes 100 companies in
19, uh, 58, the year the ship was

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launched, 37, uh, revolved around
Detroit car makers, tire makers, steel

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makers, glass makers, oil companies.

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It's all Detroit.

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So this was the hub, and
here's a fun fact for you.

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Year down in Tampa, 1960 in the US
census, guess which Great Lakes City?

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And you might know this from the
book, but guess which Great Lake

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City was bigger than Tampa, Miami,
Jacksonville, Nashville, Tennessee.

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And San Jose, California.

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And the answer is, you probably
know is Toledo, Toledo, Ohio.

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Yeah.

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You went, you went bar bets
with that one right there.

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And it was not the biggest on
the Great Lakes by a long shot.

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Detroit, Buffalo, Cleveland, Milwaukee,
Chicago, Toronto, all bigger.

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Big glass industry in Toledo
called the Glass City for a reason.

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Of course.

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Look, they, they always say that
if Detroit catches a cold, then,

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uh, then Toledo sneezes basically.

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So, um, or maybe the other way around,
but, uh, it was dependent on Detroit.

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Probably still is to some degree,
but if you're making that many

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cars, you're selling that many
windshields, so you're okay.

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Yeah.

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Interesting story about the, uh, that
little strip of land that they fought.

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Ohio and Michigan fought over that little
strip, including Toledo at one point,

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what it's called, the Toledo Strip.

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And Ohio wanted that because that was
a port, that's where the river is.

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The Maee River.

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Exactly.

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And so outta that dispute, Michigan had
to give up Toledo, but they got the upper

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peninsula, which of course ended up being
very lucrative with copper and iron.

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So it worked out okay.

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Yeah.

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Good trade.

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I think ultimately, yes,
it worked out for both.

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That's right.

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So the backgrounds of the crew, and
again, this is what really sets your

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book apart, I think from, from a lot of
the other media out there, you go into

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great detail about the lives of the crew.

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You know, these are the real
people behind the story.

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Really incredible insights into
their, their lives and their

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personalities and their families.

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What sources were you able to
access to get this information to

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provide such detailed profiles?

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Well, appreciate that Rich.

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And the subtitle is The Untold Story
of the MF Fitzgerald, and of course

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we talked about the economy, the Great
Lakes, which I've not seen elsewhere.

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Uh, in these books.

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But the real thing is exactly
as you say, I got to 14 of

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the 29 families of the crew.

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I got to six crewmen who'd been on the
ship obviously before it went down.

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'cause all 29 men went down
with that ship, including three.

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Who knew the, the knew the current
captain and crew and knew them well.

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Um, I got to one guy, Rick Bari,
probably the last surviving member of

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the crew of the Anderson that sailed
that night, November 10th in 1975.

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Um, which means.

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That's, that's a close we
can get to an eyewitness.

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He was in the same storm.

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What's that like?

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Uh, Rick can tell us.

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So I got very, very lucky.

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It started with, uh, Bruce Lin,
the executive director of the

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Great Lakes Shipwreck Museum.

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Uh, he knew the families they'd
gained, uh, he had gained their trust.

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And he and I hit it off.

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He'd read my previous books.

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So, uh, he basically lend his credibility
to me for, on their behalf, basically.

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So I got lucky there.

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And the families had never
talked to any author before, any

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reporter, so they all talked.

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Wow.

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And they all talked as,
you know, very openly.

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You see what they told
me about their Yeah.

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Their uncles, their fathers, their loved
ones, their boyfriends in some cases.

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So they were wonderful
as far as that goes.

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And that, that obviously colors.

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Everything else.

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It gives you an intimate look at
what their lives are really like.

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And I wanted to know,
what are these jobs like?

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I really didn't know there are 13 jobs
divided by 29 men at various ranks.

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You know, first May 2nd,
May 3rd mate, and so on.

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What are your jobs like?

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What's life like on deck?

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What's life like on shore,
uh, when you're traveling all

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summer long, all, all season?

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What is it like at home for your families
who don't see you for nine months?

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And I was kind of wondering if
shipping is so important, how come

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none of us know anything about it?

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And you do obviously, 'cause it's
shipwrecks and, and sea dogs, man, if

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there's one guy who knows it's you in
Tampa, of course, is a huge hub for

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international shipping, but most of us
know nothing, almost nothing about this.

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And I thought, why is this?

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Well, you got 30 guys in a ship.

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You only have 300 ships.

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Even in the heyday, that's 9,000 people
divided by eight Great Lake states and the

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very large province of Ontario, you know,
they're not gonna live next door to you.

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And if they did.

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It's still not meet 'em because they're
on a ship nine months outta the year.

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These guys are on a ship
nine months outta the year.

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Back then there are no breaks, no
holidays, anniversaries, graduations,

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birthdays, none of that matters.

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You were on a ship
nonstop for nine months.

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That is a huge sacrifice for the
sailors as well as their families.

232
00:10:36,780 --> 00:10:41,160
And one of the guys, Tom Walton, who
had been a, uh, a porter on the MF

233
00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:45,240
Fitzgerald in 1963, his dad was the chief
engineer for a while, but not at the end.

234
00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:46,350
His uncle was on the ship.

235
00:10:46,730 --> 00:10:48,050
That last night, sadly.

236
00:10:48,380 --> 00:10:53,810
Um, but his dad being the ship all season,
his, his grade line was, uh, you know,

237
00:10:53,810 --> 00:10:57,709
when your mom says wait till your dad
gets home, that carries very little power.

238
00:10:57,980 --> 00:10:58,069
Mm-hmm.

239
00:10:58,189 --> 00:11:01,730
Because that's gonna be who can keep
my sins together for nine months.

240
00:11:01,730 --> 00:11:04,040
So that washes out pretty fast.

241
00:11:06,330 --> 00:11:10,140
Speaking of that, you know, you wrote a
lot about, like you said, what, what the

242
00:11:10,140 --> 00:11:15,480
routines were, the camaraderie on board
and what they got up to on shore, you

243
00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:20,040
know, some of the shenanigans at ports,
uh, you know, Toledo, uh, silver Bay.

244
00:11:20,100 --> 00:11:24,060
What, what do you think made the
relationships on the Edmund Fitzgerald

245
00:11:24,060 --> 00:11:27,450
between the crew themselves and then the
crew and the officers and the captain?

246
00:11:27,450 --> 00:11:29,370
What, what made that so special on board?

247
00:11:29,730 --> 00:11:30,510
The Edmond Fitzgerald?

248
00:11:30,510 --> 00:11:31,890
Think, I would say, say two things.

249
00:11:32,535 --> 00:11:34,935
Captain McSorley, he was considered
the greatest captain of the Great

250
00:11:34,935 --> 00:11:38,685
Lakes in terms of skill, but also
probably in terms of management in an

251
00:11:38,685 --> 00:11:40,064
era where these guys could be tyrants.

252
00:11:40,064 --> 00:11:41,025
It's kinda like football coaches.

253
00:11:41,025 --> 00:11:44,265
50 years ago you could get away, you
could get away with a lot of things.

254
00:11:44,265 --> 00:11:46,935
You could 50 years ago, you, you
can't grab their face mask and

255
00:11:46,935 --> 00:11:48,494
scream at 'em anymore In those days.

256
00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,870
Captains would throw hot coffee
on their people and scream and

257
00:11:51,870 --> 00:11:53,820
yell and all kinds of crazy stuff.

258
00:11:53,820 --> 00:11:54,930
McSorley did none of that.

259
00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:59,430
So his crew, because he's so good and
such a caring guy, they would follow

260
00:11:59,430 --> 00:12:03,330
him as he got promoted from ship to
ship, including his biggest and last

261
00:12:03,330 --> 00:12:06,480
promotion, the best ship in the Great
Lakes, this ship, the m Fitzgerald.

262
00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:10,230
So, and he instilled what they called,
I dunno if I can swear in your,

263
00:12:10,620 --> 00:12:12,990
in your podcast or not, go for it.

264
00:12:12,990 --> 00:12:16,120
But he told me Craig Sullivan, who'd been
on the ship, they had a very strict no.

265
00:12:16,785 --> 00:12:20,715
Policy, um, and no jerk policy in
case you have to bleep that out.

266
00:12:22,155 --> 00:12:26,145
And we had a case where a guy was a jerk
and he was not in the ship the next year.

267
00:12:26,145 --> 00:12:30,105
So, and the second reason was
the fits itself was so good, was

268
00:12:30,105 --> 00:12:32,895
the rockstar, the best food, the
best living quarters, and so on.

269
00:12:33,345 --> 00:12:36,315
As one of my guys, Patrick Devine,
who'd been in the ship that summer

270
00:12:36,615 --> 00:12:38,415
as a, uh, deckhand, he said, man.

271
00:12:38,655 --> 00:12:41,625
You fought to get on that ship and
you fought to stay on that ship.

272
00:12:41,865 --> 00:12:43,125
It's kind of getting on the Yankees.

273
00:12:43,454 --> 00:12:46,725
If you're on the Yankees, well go
ahead and shave your beard because

274
00:12:46,725 --> 00:12:48,975
you wanna, you wanna remain a Yankee,
and that's what these guys did.

275
00:12:48,975 --> 00:12:54,525
So these guys also had an unusually
unified group and the best at every class.

276
00:12:54,895 --> 00:12:57,445
Whether it's oiler or port or whatever,
you're the best in the Fitzgerald.

277
00:12:57,865 --> 00:13:00,625
Great line from Patrick Divine
who'd been in that ship, as I said,

278
00:13:00,625 --> 00:13:03,805
he said, and in this ship, unlike
every other ship I'd been on, he'd

279
00:13:03,805 --> 00:13:05,875
been on 10 ships as a deckhand.

280
00:13:05,965 --> 00:13:07,255
There were no weirdos.

281
00:13:07,435 --> 00:13:11,185
And then he said, and this is the
seventies, so when weirdos are in deep

282
00:13:11,185 --> 00:13:13,945
supply, um, he said that was very unusual.

283
00:13:14,005 --> 00:13:16,290
So this is what an elite bunch
you wanted to stay there.

284
00:13:17,835 --> 00:13:21,915
I thought it was interesting too, the
way you, you described how on, on many

285
00:13:21,915 --> 00:13:27,345
ships, the deck crew and the engineering
crew didn't really coexist much.

286
00:13:27,345 --> 00:13:28,665
They didn't talk to each other much.

287
00:13:28,665 --> 00:13:29,835
They didn't hang out together.

288
00:13:30,075 --> 00:13:34,605
But that was not the case on the Edmund
Fitzgerald that everybody knew everybody.

289
00:13:34,935 --> 00:13:36,345
They were all friendly with each other.

290
00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:40,275
Do you think that's, again,
something that Mc Soley encouraged?

291
00:13:41,025 --> 00:13:42,735
He enforced basically.

292
00:13:42,795 --> 00:13:45,465
So there are three divisions that
happen on most ships, and I got

293
00:13:45,465 --> 00:13:48,315
this from God, probably 20 ceiling
experts, guys who've been in these

294
00:13:48,315 --> 00:13:50,505
ships and supervised them and so on.

295
00:13:50,835 --> 00:13:54,795
One is geography that this crew
is one third Duluth, one third

296
00:13:54,795 --> 00:13:57,795
Toledo, and one third Cleveland,
more or less outta the 29th.

297
00:13:58,215 --> 00:14:00,045
Um, usually that, that's
your pocket right there.

298
00:14:00,045 --> 00:14:00,915
You don't hang out with the other guys.

299
00:14:00,915 --> 00:14:03,764
Well, sorority's best
friend was John Simmons.

300
00:14:03,945 --> 00:14:05,865
The, uh, the Wheelman from Toledo, Ohio.

301
00:14:06,250 --> 00:14:07,900
So, and they went from
ship to ship to ship.

302
00:14:07,900 --> 00:14:09,880
So the geography got
broken down very quickly.

303
00:14:10,330 --> 00:14:12,220
The next is, um, is age.

304
00:14:13,260 --> 00:14:17,190
In this ship you had three quarters
or 40 and above, um, usually

305
00:14:17,190 --> 00:14:18,450
the average age around 50 or so.

306
00:14:18,450 --> 00:14:21,030
Of those guys, they, they'd
survived the Great Depression.

307
00:14:21,060 --> 00:14:24,360
They had fought in World War II or
Korea often with great distinction.

308
00:14:24,630 --> 00:14:26,850
They had, you know, buzz cuts and so on.

309
00:14:26,850 --> 00:14:27,780
This is 1975.

310
00:14:28,230 --> 00:14:30,600
Then you had six guys between 20 and 22.

311
00:14:31,170 --> 00:14:34,650
And that's, of course those guys
are trying to avoid Vietnam.

312
00:14:34,740 --> 00:14:36,450
So it's a very different mindset.

313
00:14:36,450 --> 00:14:39,300
They had the lamb chops, the long
hair, you see the photos in the

314
00:14:39,300 --> 00:14:42,420
book, and these guys got along
great and the younger guys said.

315
00:14:42,710 --> 00:14:44,960
The guys I talked to, of course you would
not have been on the ship that night,

316
00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:47,840
but they said McSorley was utterly fair.

317
00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:51,800
If you did your job, you did it the
way an m Fitzgerald crewman must.

318
00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:53,300
Then the rest he didn't care about.

319
00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:56,210
Um, one guy said, you only
care about your long hair.

320
00:14:56,210 --> 00:15:00,170
We got caught in the
machine, so don't do that.

321
00:15:00,170 --> 00:15:03,470
And the third division is the one you
talk about, uh, the front of the ship, the

322
00:15:03,470 --> 00:15:05,330
back of the ship, above deck, below deck.

323
00:15:05,630 --> 00:15:07,700
That's the pilot house
in the front above deck.

324
00:15:08,030 --> 00:15:10,040
That's the engine room
in the back below deck.

325
00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:11,060
And these guys.

326
00:15:11,535 --> 00:15:14,025
Think differently and all
that and work differently.

327
00:15:14,085 --> 00:15:16,635
Uh, but they often, they
usually don't get along.

328
00:15:16,875 --> 00:15:20,175
Starting with the captain of the ship
and the pilot house and the chief

329
00:15:20,175 --> 00:15:23,355
engineer and the engine house, those
guys would often not even know, even

330
00:15:23,355 --> 00:15:26,805
know each other's names, not sit down to
eat with each other, any of that stuff.

331
00:15:26,954 --> 00:15:28,785
And McSorley broke all that down.

332
00:15:29,145 --> 00:15:33,675
And so this was a very, again, a very
unusually unified ship, which makes

333
00:15:33,675 --> 00:15:35,385
it all the more heartbreaking perhaps.

334
00:15:35,385 --> 00:15:36,045
But there you are.

335
00:15:36,585 --> 00:15:36,855
Yeah.

336
00:15:36,944 --> 00:15:38,805
I really enjoyed the stories too, about.

337
00:15:39,194 --> 00:15:44,715
What they were up to on shore, you
know, finding whatever little townie bar

338
00:15:44,715 --> 00:15:48,345
they could find near the port, hanging
out together, listening to the music

339
00:15:48,345 --> 00:15:51,525
on the jukeboxes, you know, they, they
got to know each other really well,

340
00:15:51,525 --> 00:15:56,715
that it just seemed like a really good,
tight knit bunch of guys that would

341
00:15:56,715 --> 00:16:02,595
just, they, they enjoyed the life, they
enjoyed the money and liked to hang out.

342
00:16:03,255 --> 00:16:06,675
While they could, a couple hours
maybe while the ship was being

343
00:16:06,675 --> 00:16:10,425
loaded, maybe four or five hours
before they had to head, back, head,

344
00:16:10,574 --> 00:16:11,925
head right back out, like you said.

345
00:16:12,525 --> 00:16:13,155
Well, exactly.

346
00:16:13,155 --> 00:16:17,204
So these, for nine months outta the year,
these ships are either loading, sailing,

347
00:16:17,204 --> 00:16:18,704
or unloading, there's nothing else.

348
00:16:18,704 --> 00:16:21,735
And you don't sit on the dock for
three hours waiting to unload.

349
00:16:22,095 --> 00:16:25,125
The second you get to that dock at three
o'clock in the morning, no one cares.

350
00:16:25,454 --> 00:16:26,055
You unload.

351
00:16:26,295 --> 00:16:27,180
And if you're ready to go at.

352
00:16:27,875 --> 00:16:29,405
Four o'clock in the morning you load.

353
00:16:29,465 --> 00:16:32,345
So it's about four or five
hours to load the ship and about

354
00:16:32,345 --> 00:16:33,635
14 hours to unload the ship.

355
00:16:34,145 --> 00:16:36,485
So that means if you're in Silver
Bay, Minnesota loading, you

356
00:16:36,485 --> 00:16:39,574
got four or five hours, you go
what's called go up the street.

357
00:16:39,995 --> 00:16:41,435
And this is how detailed the book is.

358
00:16:41,735 --> 00:16:45,574
I put up the road in one of my drafts
and the sailor said, you put that.

359
00:16:45,944 --> 00:16:46,755
You'll get killed.

360
00:16:47,085 --> 00:16:47,895
It's not up the road.

361
00:16:47,895 --> 00:16:48,585
It's up the street.

362
00:16:48,824 --> 00:16:49,335
Okay?

363
00:16:49,335 --> 00:16:52,005
It's up the street, but the
thinking is very clear back then.

364
00:16:52,005 --> 00:16:52,725
There's no Uber there.

365
00:16:52,725 --> 00:16:57,074
Not too many cabs in Silver Bay,
Minnesota, so it's gotta be close enough.

366
00:16:57,375 --> 00:16:59,025
These bars always had a great jukebox.

367
00:16:59,025 --> 00:17:00,585
They had Stross, Bohemian style beer.

368
00:17:00,710 --> 00:17:04,520
Good, great lakes to trip beer back in
the day and walking distance to the dock

369
00:17:04,610 --> 00:17:06,410
had to be or else you can't go there.

370
00:17:06,410 --> 00:17:09,079
So you get up there and if
the old guys are there first,

371
00:17:09,079 --> 00:17:10,280
they listen to country music.

372
00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:11,720
You know, Johnny Cash and so on.

373
00:17:11,780 --> 00:17:12,800
The young guys get there first.

374
00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,800
It's Rolling Stones and
Motown and you name it.

375
00:17:15,829 --> 00:17:17,060
Led Zeppelin, Bob Seger.

376
00:17:17,510 --> 00:17:21,530
Uh, but the one song they would all
agree on, as you know, is Brandy.

377
00:17:21,530 --> 00:17:22,430
You're a fine girl.

378
00:17:22,790 --> 00:17:22,910
Yeah.

379
00:17:22,910 --> 00:17:24,020
But a good wife, you would be.

380
00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:26,020
But my life, my love
of my lady is the sea.

381
00:17:26,500 --> 00:17:29,260
Um, and I paid a couple thousand
dollars for the rice to that song.

382
00:17:29,290 --> 00:17:33,070
I thought it was too important, uh,
to include those lyrics, uh, as the

383
00:17:33,070 --> 00:17:36,280
one time they would literally sing
in unison that was the anthem and all

384
00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:37,960
these juke boxes at all these bars.

385
00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:41,500
And by the way, I've been a few of these
bars all in the interest naturally of good

386
00:17:41,500 --> 00:17:42,820
hard hitting investigative journalism.

387
00:17:42,825 --> 00:17:42,885
Sure.

388
00:17:43,590 --> 00:17:47,430
Exactly, but I've been to Silver Bay,
Minnesota, uh, Minnesota, the municipal

389
00:17:47,430 --> 00:17:48,570
bar, they're owned by the city.

390
00:17:48,900 --> 00:17:51,480
Been to the President's lounge in
Superior where they had their last drinks.

391
00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:55,920
And Mans and Toledo, you name
it, they all still have Brandy

392
00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:57,570
Reifying girl on the jukebox.

393
00:17:57,570 --> 00:17:58,260
Pleased to say.

394
00:17:59,699 --> 00:18:00,389
Are they better?

395
00:18:00,719 --> 00:18:01,469
It's a tradition

396
00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:06,929
when we start thinking about
the, the wreck of the ship.

397
00:18:06,959 --> 00:18:10,740
And, uh, you know, again, we're not
gonna rehash the, the entire story

398
00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:14,639
that's in episode 33 if anybody
wants to hear from start to finish.

399
00:18:14,639 --> 00:18:18,899
But, uh, you know, a lot of theories
get thrown out about why it may have

400
00:18:18,899 --> 00:18:23,010
happened and perhaps Captain McSorley
didn't make the best decisions.

401
00:18:23,070 --> 00:18:25,439
But like any shipwreck,
it's never just one thing.

402
00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:27,930
That's so crucial.

403
00:18:28,260 --> 00:18:28,710
Yeah.

404
00:18:28,710 --> 00:18:32,850
So in the business of shipping,
obviously Captain McSorley, it was

405
00:18:32,850 --> 00:18:37,020
important for him to stay on schedule,
meet deadlines, et cetera, right?

406
00:18:37,020 --> 00:18:40,440
Carry as much or as they could
from from one port to the next.

407
00:18:41,070 --> 00:18:44,610
But what do you think the factors
were at that point that pushed

408
00:18:44,610 --> 00:18:50,790
him to continue on the run and
not pull in to find some shelter?

409
00:18:51,930 --> 00:18:52,860
Uh, great question.

410
00:18:52,860 --> 00:18:54,780
You've already broken down a
live, you know, about the storm

411
00:18:54,780 --> 00:18:55,740
of the century, basically.

412
00:18:56,190 --> 00:18:56,370
Yeah.

413
00:18:56,370 --> 00:18:57,865
Ultimately 60 foot waves and.

414
00:18:58,350 --> 00:19:00,840
A hundred mile per hour winds
in the spot where the Fitzgerald

415
00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:02,790
was and not where Anderson was.

416
00:19:02,790 --> 00:19:05,879
As one of my experts said, that
ship ended up in exactly the wrong

417
00:19:05,879 --> 00:19:07,199
place at exactly the wrong time.

418
00:19:07,350 --> 00:19:11,429
A storm guarding Whitefish Bay, like a
catcher blocking home plate basically.

419
00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:14,040
So that's obviously a huge factor.

420
00:19:14,399 --> 00:19:15,330
The way the ship was built.

421
00:19:15,360 --> 00:19:17,129
They favored a wells of a rivets.

422
00:19:17,129 --> 00:19:18,719
It makes it more flexible than planned.

423
00:19:19,169 --> 00:19:23,669
Uh, these standards had changed
years later in 69 and 71 and 73

424
00:19:23,669 --> 00:19:27,794
about how much iron or you can carry
went from 22,000 pounds to, um.

425
00:19:28,730 --> 00:19:30,110
Uh, 26,000 pounds.

426
00:19:30,110 --> 00:19:30,950
And that's a huge difference.

427
00:19:30,950 --> 00:19:31,910
It's not built for that.

428
00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:34,160
So all these things, they
just say start to add up.

429
00:19:34,220 --> 00:19:34,880
It's dominoes.

430
00:19:36,165 --> 00:19:38,025
But then you've got the
decisions made that day.

431
00:19:38,415 --> 00:19:41,535
Um, and the biggest one that
McCordy made after you left port,

432
00:19:41,535 --> 00:19:42,765
it's pretty clear storm's coming.

433
00:19:43,155 --> 00:19:46,605
This is going to be not only the
last run of the season, it's gonna

434
00:19:46,605 --> 00:19:47,775
be the last run of his career.

435
00:19:47,775 --> 00:19:47,835
Yeah.

436
00:19:48,165 --> 00:19:51,075
And five of his friends are
also gonna retire with that run.

437
00:19:51,075 --> 00:19:52,965
So it makes it, again, all
the more heartbreaking.

438
00:19:53,010 --> 00:19:55,140
Their wives are waiting for
them in Toledo to celebrate.

439
00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:58,350
And this trip, as you know,
he tacked on as a bonus.

440
00:19:58,410 --> 00:20:01,260
They're gonna stop the week
before as a bonus to pay for

441
00:20:01,260 --> 00:20:03,270
his wife's Nelly's medical care.

442
00:20:03,270 --> 00:20:05,970
She's in 24 hour care at that
point, probably with cancer anyway.

443
00:20:06,030 --> 00:20:10,950
So nonetheless, when they leave port
out of Superior Wisconsin, he and Bernie

444
00:20:10,950 --> 00:20:14,370
Cooper of the Arthur Anderson decide to
take what's called the Northern Route.

445
00:20:14,790 --> 00:20:17,940
Now, if you wanna criticize
ro, I'm not saying you do, but

446
00:20:17,940 --> 00:20:19,055
I'm saying people do certainly.

447
00:20:20,460 --> 00:20:23,370
Uh, this is one of the things they
talk about, uh, and I don't think

448
00:20:23,370 --> 00:20:26,850
they understand exactly how the whole
thing comes together in some cases.

449
00:20:26,850 --> 00:20:29,940
But anyway, this is a
very cautious decision.

450
00:20:30,360 --> 00:20:33,990
Uh, it's very judicious and frankly,
it's not like him in terms of him

451
00:20:33,990 --> 00:20:37,410
being a very aggressive captain, not
personally, but in the wheelhouse.

452
00:20:37,410 --> 00:20:38,130
He certainly was.

453
00:20:38,550 --> 00:20:41,055
Um, he, he was go, go,
go, never turned around.

454
00:20:41,075 --> 00:20:42,600
Almost always went the southern route.

455
00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:44,160
This is more cautious.

456
00:20:44,780 --> 00:20:46,100
But it comes with three catches.

457
00:20:46,490 --> 00:20:48,350
One, pay me now, pay me later.

458
00:20:48,650 --> 00:20:51,350
The first two ends of this, you're
taking three sides of rectangle

459
00:20:51,650 --> 00:20:52,730
instead of the south side.

460
00:20:53,090 --> 00:20:58,220
So the first two legs along the Canadian
shore will be more protected by the wind

461
00:20:58,250 --> 00:20:59,840
in the lee of the land, if you will.

462
00:21:00,260 --> 00:21:02,090
Um, and therefore smaller waves.

463
00:21:02,090 --> 00:21:05,510
But you'll pay a hell, hell of a
price on that last leg coming south.

464
00:21:06,139 --> 00:21:09,889
All right, you're gonna get the worst
of the, of the wind and the waves coming

465
00:21:09,889 --> 00:21:12,290
across 350 miles of Lake Superior.

466
00:21:12,620 --> 00:21:15,469
And it is gonna hit your broad
side, which captains do not like.

467
00:21:15,500 --> 00:21:18,620
'cause that means you're rocking back
and forth, side to side, as you know.

468
00:21:18,679 --> 00:21:20,389
So that's one problem right there too.

469
00:21:20,750 --> 00:21:22,550
It's 14 hours longer this way.

470
00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:23,650
Then the Southern route.

471
00:21:24,070 --> 00:21:24,850
Why does that matter?

472
00:21:24,850 --> 00:21:27,430
You just gave that storm that he
does not really know that much about

473
00:21:27,670 --> 00:21:30,580
the forecasting wasn't as good as it
should have been, even for the time,

474
00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:32,260
and the communications was even poor.

475
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:35,050
So he, he knew way too
little about these storms.

476
00:21:35,050 --> 00:21:38,020
But that storm from the
Southwest is gonna come up.

477
00:21:38,050 --> 00:21:39,370
It's called the Panhandle Hooker.

478
00:21:39,730 --> 00:21:41,050
I learned in the meantime, how about that?

479
00:21:41,765 --> 00:21:43,955
From, uh, Oklahoma and Texas.

480
00:21:43,955 --> 00:21:45,035
It wheels its way on up.

481
00:21:45,065 --> 00:21:46,385
He does not know much about that.

482
00:21:46,655 --> 00:21:48,875
He just gave that storm a 14
hour headstart to get there

483
00:21:48,875 --> 00:21:51,155
before you, and that could have
made the difference right there.

484
00:21:51,155 --> 00:21:55,805
And third, and perhaps most importantly,
he knows this route far less than

485
00:21:55,805 --> 00:21:57,125
he knows the normal southern route.

486
00:21:57,575 --> 00:21:59,415
Uh, he takes that route 50
times a year and really.

487
00:21:59,905 --> 00:22:01,795
A hundred with round trips.

488
00:22:01,825 --> 00:22:05,754
He's been a captain for 32 years
and that's 3000 runs basically.

489
00:22:06,085 --> 00:22:07,705
Uh, he knows that like a back of his hand.

490
00:22:07,705 --> 00:22:11,695
He knows the apostle islands, he knows the
currents, uh, the tendencies and whatnot.

491
00:22:12,085 --> 00:22:15,415
This other route, the guys I talked
to who'd been on the ship that year,

492
00:22:15,745 --> 00:22:17,034
they say we didn't take that all year.

493
00:22:17,409 --> 00:22:20,860
The northern route, um, and, and
maybe not for a couple years.

494
00:22:21,129 --> 00:22:23,530
So now you're, you don't
know it near it as well.

495
00:22:23,919 --> 00:22:27,639
And of course, as you know, they might've
run into trouble near Caribou Island.

496
00:22:27,639 --> 00:22:31,810
This little spit of land, one mile by
three miles, little swampy buggy thing.

497
00:22:32,169 --> 00:22:33,040
No humans on it.

498
00:22:33,215 --> 00:22:35,315
Um, and before that, of
course it's six Fathom sho.

499
00:22:35,705 --> 00:22:39,545
If they did in fact run across
fix six, fathom Choal, that

500
00:22:39,545 --> 00:22:40,535
might've been the last straw.

501
00:22:40,895 --> 00:22:43,655
Uh, if they did, then they would've
hit, they hit, they'd probably

502
00:22:43,655 --> 00:22:47,705
taken on water that would explain
the starboard list it had later on.

503
00:22:47,705 --> 00:22:49,475
And by the way, I love
talking to your crowd.

504
00:22:49,925 --> 00:22:52,655
I don't how to explain list or freeboard
a lot of things to these people.

505
00:22:52,985 --> 00:22:55,685
These are normally things I've
gotta educate each time out.

506
00:22:55,685 --> 00:22:57,065
So kudos to you guys.

507
00:22:57,185 --> 00:22:59,855
But anyway, if you had to break
it down, those are the decisions.

508
00:22:59,975 --> 00:23:01,270
And the heartbreaking thing to me.

509
00:23:01,610 --> 00:23:05,840
Probably the fifth time I use that word is
this is the one time the guy is actually

510
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:07,939
cautious and it might've cost him.

511
00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:11,389
So it's hard to fault him for
being cautious in that situation,

512
00:23:11,419 --> 00:23:15,590
given his truly limited knowledge
of what was happening if he

513
00:23:15,590 --> 00:23:16,939
just bombed across the south.

514
00:23:16,939 --> 00:23:21,080
Okay, it's a nasty, ugly trip with
a lot of wind, a lot of waves, but

515
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:22,459
you're getting there before the storm.

516
00:23:22,459 --> 00:23:24,649
The worst of it, you're not
gonna over Carville Island,

517
00:23:25,159 --> 00:23:26,120
uh, you'll probably be okay.

518
00:23:28,260 --> 00:23:29,490
Yeah, I agree with you.

519
00:23:29,879 --> 00:23:33,659
I don't think Captain McSorley
necessarily made a mistake.

520
00:23:33,659 --> 00:23:36,695
I wouldn't really classify it as a
mistake making it worked out that way.

521
00:23:36,695 --> 00:23:42,210
He was making Yeah, in, in, in the end,
uh, better decision could have been made.

522
00:23:42,659 --> 00:23:44,909
But of course he didn't know
the full strength of that storm.

523
00:23:44,909 --> 00:23:48,449
He didn't know that it would be
coming to be the absolute worst.

524
00:23:48,449 --> 00:23:51,720
Right at that point, at
Whitefish Bay and he and up.

525
00:23:52,125 --> 00:23:54,885
Captain Cooper on the Anderson agreed.

526
00:23:55,005 --> 00:23:57,015
They were in communication when they left.

527
00:23:57,045 --> 00:23:57,135
Mm-hmm.

528
00:23:57,675 --> 00:24:00,195
And they agreed that they would
take the northern route that

529
00:24:00,195 --> 00:24:01,395
they thought that was best's.

530
00:24:02,115 --> 00:24:04,575
So it just worked out that
way and the Anderson made it.

531
00:24:04,725 --> 00:24:07,255
So it was just maybe, uh, uh, you know.

532
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:09,570
A little bit of bad luck as well.

533
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:11,220
They lost their radar.

534
00:24:11,250 --> 00:24:11,340
Mm-hmm.

535
00:24:11,730 --> 00:24:15,480
A lot of things, like we said before,
it's not, it's never just one thing.

536
00:24:15,540 --> 00:24:20,820
And that segues perfectly into what I
wanted to ask, ask next, is that the, the

537
00:24:20,820 --> 00:24:24,930
theories behind what could have happened,
you know, you mentioned six Fathom shool.

538
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:30,960
Captain Cooper said he saw the Fitzgerald
run right over that on the radar.

539
00:24:31,020 --> 00:24:33,270
So if they did hit the
shoal and bottomed out.

540
00:24:33,870 --> 00:24:38,669
Certainly it could have ripped a hole
in, in the hole and they took on water.

541
00:24:38,700 --> 00:24:42,300
You mentioned the, the, the way
the ship was designed, that they

542
00:24:42,300 --> 00:24:44,490
used welds over rivets and mm-hmm.

543
00:24:44,940 --> 00:24:48,060
That could have caused some s
significant sagging or hogging.

544
00:24:48,120 --> 00:24:50,280
It could have been a combination
of all of these things.

545
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:55,860
My personal opinion on this is that I
think they probably did hit the shoal and,

546
00:24:55,889 --> 00:24:59,340
uh, take on water, but from your research,
what, what are your thoughts about that?

547
00:25:00,375 --> 00:25:03,705
Well, I think that's likely, again,
the biggest thing to keep in mind.

548
00:25:03,765 --> 00:25:04,275
Two things.

549
00:25:04,275 --> 00:25:09,405
One, it's never just one thing, it's,
it's a accrued problems in the airline

550
00:25:09,405 --> 00:25:11,295
industry, they call it the accident chain.

551
00:25:11,655 --> 00:25:14,235
Here you got this storm of the
century, how the ship was built,

552
00:25:14,504 --> 00:25:17,715
how the regulations changed to
allow it to carry more tonnage

553
00:25:17,715 --> 00:25:19,035
than it was really designed for.

554
00:25:19,460 --> 00:25:22,130
Mechanical Theos that night
and some decisions, you add

555
00:25:22,130 --> 00:25:23,000
it all up and there you go.

556
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:23,060
Yeah.

557
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,990
So, which draws the one hard to
say, but as you know from my book,

558
00:25:27,110 --> 00:25:29,450
um, the kinda surprise is not
getting more national tension.

559
00:25:29,450 --> 00:25:29,870
Frankly.

560
00:25:29,930 --> 00:25:33,200
A lot of the book is, I'm pleased
to report, but this aspect is not.

561
00:25:33,230 --> 00:25:37,250
Dick Race was considered the greatest, uh,
diving investigator on the Great Lakes.

562
00:25:37,250 --> 00:25:39,745
He found a jumbo jet in the late
sixties when no one else could find it.

563
00:25:40,365 --> 00:25:41,145
In Lake Michigan.

564
00:25:41,295 --> 00:25:42,255
That's how good he was.

565
00:25:42,285 --> 00:25:43,785
He was commissioned by Ogleby Norton.

566
00:25:44,235 --> 00:25:47,565
Ogleby Norton was the company that
leased and operated the ship while

567
00:25:47,565 --> 00:25:48,675
Northwestern Mutual owned it.

568
00:25:48,765 --> 00:25:50,145
So Ogleby Norton's out of Cleveland.

569
00:25:51,105 --> 00:25:55,455
They asked him six months later, a paid
trip, uh, with a non-disclosure agreement,

570
00:25:55,515 --> 00:26:00,015
confidential, of course, to go out to six
five shoal and do his own diving on it.

571
00:26:00,495 --> 00:26:02,235
Um, he had this ship called the Neptune.

572
00:26:02,295 --> 00:26:05,595
He dived himself on it and
he put together his report.

573
00:26:05,655 --> 00:26:06,765
The report went to Cleveland.

574
00:26:06,770 --> 00:26:06,870
It.

575
00:26:07,110 --> 00:26:08,340
Now we can't find the report.

576
00:26:08,399 --> 00:26:13,409
And I, trust me, when I tell you how hard,
I tried trying to hunt down anybody who

577
00:26:13,409 --> 00:26:17,610
was attached to it, anybody whose name
was out there, Dick Race, died in 2002.

578
00:26:17,699 --> 00:26:19,649
So, and we've lost him on this.

579
00:26:19,649 --> 00:26:22,260
But anyway, it turns out I
got to a guy named Peter Grow.

580
00:26:22,649 --> 00:26:26,280
Peter Grow's, job went arguably,
Norton went bankrupt in 2004.

581
00:26:26,459 --> 00:26:29,310
He had two years basically to go
through all these boxes, hundreds of

582
00:26:29,310 --> 00:26:31,195
boxes, maybe thousands in Cleveland.

583
00:26:32,025 --> 00:26:33,195
And this is everything.

584
00:26:33,195 --> 00:26:36,735
All their ships, all their crew,
the page stubs, every little

585
00:26:36,735 --> 00:26:38,625
thing went through all the boxes.

586
00:26:38,955 --> 00:26:43,005
And all the boxes are accounted for
hundreds upon hundreds except for three.

587
00:26:43,425 --> 00:26:46,425
And they're all in the Emin Fitzgerald,
and they're not signed out by anybody.

588
00:26:46,545 --> 00:26:49,035
There's no trace anywhere
of those three boxes.

589
00:26:49,125 --> 00:26:49,605
Wow.

590
00:26:49,995 --> 00:26:51,555
Can I say exactly what
happened to those boxes?

591
00:26:51,555 --> 00:26:52,035
I can't.

592
00:26:52,335 --> 00:26:52,845
Can I say that?

593
00:26:52,845 --> 00:26:53,200
Looks a little funny.

594
00:26:53,860 --> 00:26:54,550
Yes, I can.

595
00:26:54,970 --> 00:26:55,929
Um, absolutely.

596
00:26:55,929 --> 00:26:58,090
That's probably where Dick RA's report is.

597
00:26:58,090 --> 00:26:59,679
So there's that.

598
00:26:59,710 --> 00:27:03,520
But he did talk to three people and
I've since Learned, learned of a fourth.

599
00:27:03,850 --> 00:27:06,490
And these are all
credible maritime experts.

600
00:27:06,580 --> 00:27:10,270
John Tanner, the superintendent of the
Great Lakes Maritime Academy for 16 years.

601
00:27:10,665 --> 00:27:14,655
Ed Wilsey, one of their graduates who
was still the captain of the SS Badger, a

602
00:27:14,955 --> 00:27:19,395
car fair that goes across Lake Michigan,
between Michigan, Wisconsin, Earl Zuki,

603
00:27:19,665 --> 00:27:24,135
a retired lieutenant, uh, the Chicago
Police Department, uh, who hired, uh, race

604
00:27:24,255 --> 00:27:28,155
constantly for their own investigations,
and they docked his, his both there.

605
00:27:28,275 --> 00:27:30,495
And I finally added a
fourth Tom White, another.

606
00:27:30,755 --> 00:27:31,625
Great Lakes captain.

607
00:27:31,685 --> 00:27:34,745
He towed all four in different
places at different times.

608
00:27:34,985 --> 00:27:39,395
The exact same thing I saw, I
investigated and found the red paint

609
00:27:39,695 --> 00:27:44,495
from Evan Fitzgerald on the bottom
of six Fathom Shoal and, and nearby.

610
00:27:44,495 --> 00:27:45,545
There's a rock that's scratched.

611
00:27:45,545 --> 00:27:48,935
It has to be by it, ship, it can't
be by, uh, anything down there.

612
00:27:49,530 --> 00:27:53,520
Otherwise, and I mean, and he, and
it broke his heart that he could

613
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:56,340
not get the word out and he, people
would say, he'd get teary eyed

614
00:27:56,340 --> 00:27:57,600
about not getting the word out.

615
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:00,960
Little did he know that short after
he died, the sh the company went

616
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,270
bankrupt anyway, so it could have
made it public, but he didn't.

617
00:28:03,300 --> 00:28:05,430
But that's, does that seal the case?

618
00:28:05,610 --> 00:28:06,330
I can't say that.

619
00:28:06,820 --> 00:28:09,189
And without the report, I'd be
reluctant to say that as well.

620
00:28:09,250 --> 00:28:11,139
Does that make it highly suggestive?

621
00:28:11,470 --> 00:28:12,040
Yes.

622
00:28:12,310 --> 00:28:16,570
It makes it, I think, extremely difficult,
if not impossible, to completely dismiss

623
00:28:16,570 --> 00:28:20,439
the idea that this ship went over six
fathom shoal, which some still maintain

624
00:28:20,439 --> 00:28:22,060
to this day, which is nuts to me.

625
00:28:22,120 --> 00:28:26,439
So I think that certainly played a
part, and if it did so, it almost

626
00:28:26,439 --> 00:28:27,370
certainly would've hit bottom.

627
00:28:27,370 --> 00:28:30,264
And then that's where the damage could
have happened to bring the water on board.

628
00:28:32,219 --> 00:28:36,270
And it really could have been a, a
combination of all of those things.

629
00:28:36,449 --> 00:28:38,129
It could have ripped a hole in the hole.

630
00:28:38,370 --> 00:28:38,459
Yes.

631
00:28:38,459 --> 00:28:41,290
And it could have hogged or
sagged and, and snapped in half.

632
00:28:41,805 --> 00:28:45,435
Due to its, well, in fact I would say
both are kind of are entirely likely.

633
00:28:46,305 --> 00:28:46,395
Yeah.

634
00:28:46,395 --> 00:28:47,475
That means you have that
much water on board.

635
00:28:47,475 --> 00:28:51,465
And by the way, people ask me about
this, and I was shocked about this

636
00:28:51,465 --> 00:28:56,355
with the captains I talked to, that
you could hit bottom with 26,000 tons

637
00:28:56,355 --> 00:28:59,955
of iron ore on your ship and your ship
already weighs several dozen thousand

638
00:28:59,955 --> 00:29:01,995
tons and not know that you had done so.

639
00:29:02,355 --> 00:29:07,395
That smash into the waves is so
harsh on these ships that it feels

640
00:29:07,395 --> 00:29:08,745
about the same as hitting the bottom.

641
00:29:09,325 --> 00:29:10,450
Of, of the lake floor.

642
00:29:10,630 --> 00:29:11,500
That's amazing to me.

643
00:29:11,770 --> 00:29:15,250
And of course if you're taking on
water, they said you're taking on water.

644
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:15,820
Okay.

645
00:29:15,820 --> 00:29:19,480
Tons at a time, but you're, you're
dropping down inches at a time,

646
00:29:19,690 --> 00:29:21,190
over a four or five hour period.

647
00:29:22,180 --> 00:29:23,260
Look at Titanic, man.

648
00:29:23,260 --> 00:29:25,810
That thing is sinking and they
kinda half know it, but if you're

649
00:29:25,810 --> 00:29:26,770
down in the bottom, you know it.

650
00:29:26,770 --> 00:29:26,860
Right.

651
00:29:27,310 --> 00:29:31,690
Um, so it's a gradual process that
a captain might not be aware of.

652
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:34,210
And we may never know.

653
00:29:34,210 --> 00:29:36,850
And in fact probably, we'll,
we'll never know for sure.

654
00:29:36,910 --> 00:29:37,280
And it.

655
00:29:37,500 --> 00:29:40,590
It doesn't really matter if
we ever know, to be honest.

656
00:29:40,620 --> 00:29:43,500
The bottom line is 29
people lost their lives.

657
00:29:43,530 --> 00:29:47,160
I think it's more of just as human
beings, whenever there's a mystery,

658
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:48,480
we wanna, we wanna solve it.

659
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:50,370
Of course, it's our nature naturally.

660
00:29:50,370 --> 00:29:53,310
And look, uh, another quote
that comes from Ruth Hudson.

661
00:29:53,730 --> 00:29:57,240
She's the mother of Bruce Hudson,
her only child, 22-year-old deckhand.

662
00:29:57,630 --> 00:30:01,440
She said, uh, ultimately
only 29, only 30, no 29 men.

663
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:01,950
And God.

664
00:30:02,010 --> 00:30:03,450
And as I add, no one's talking.

665
00:30:03,450 --> 00:30:06,120
So we can never completely know
'cause we have no witnesses.

666
00:30:07,620 --> 00:30:08,970
Uh, you mentioned Ruth Hudson.

667
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:13,830
The story of Bruce Hudson impacted me, I
think probably the most, out of all the,

668
00:30:14,195 --> 00:30:15,909
the personal stories that you wrote about.

669
00:30:16,635 --> 00:30:19,755
Uh, and there are a lot, you
know, all of it is a tragedy.

670
00:30:19,755 --> 00:30:24,825
Every human life lost was a tragedy and
none more significant than any other.

671
00:30:25,425 --> 00:30:28,395
But emotionally, that one just hit me
a little harder, you know, with his

672
00:30:28,395 --> 00:30:32,805
future plans, with his girlfriend and his
child, and he was gonna take this long

673
00:30:32,805 --> 00:30:34,635
trip with his friend across the country.

674
00:30:34,665 --> 00:30:35,805
So that one impacted me.

675
00:30:35,805 --> 00:30:40,425
But was there any one story for you that
kind of hit you hard when you were doing

676
00:30:40,425 --> 00:30:41,745
your research and writing about it?

677
00:30:41,750 --> 00:30:41,840
Well.

678
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,360
That one probably the hardest for some
reason it related to him is a college guy.

679
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:46,470
He went to Ohio State, which.

680
00:30:46,815 --> 00:30:49,815
The older guys never had gone to college,
and some had not graduated from high

681
00:30:49,815 --> 00:30:52,545
school, but they taught themselves
these very complicated jobs and passed

682
00:30:52,545 --> 00:30:54,045
these tests, which are very hard.

683
00:30:54,045 --> 00:30:55,635
It's a very self-educated bunch.

684
00:30:56,175 --> 00:30:58,845
But, uh, Bruce Hudson went to
Ohio State for a couple years,

685
00:30:59,295 --> 00:31:02,475
took a couple summers off to make
extraordinarily good money as a deckhand.

686
00:31:02,475 --> 00:31:03,885
That's the lowest ranking guy on the ship.

687
00:31:04,335 --> 00:31:04,935
These guys making.

688
00:31:05,379 --> 00:31:07,389
Today's dollar is $180,000 a year.

689
00:31:08,260 --> 00:31:08,320
Yeah.

690
00:31:08,379 --> 00:31:10,480
Even back then, that was three
times what a teacher made.

691
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,540
So that's good money for nine months outta
the year if you can, if you can get it.

692
00:31:13,990 --> 00:31:18,550
He had his hot shot muscle
car, the 1972 Dodge Challenger

693
00:31:18,940 --> 00:31:20,379
parked at the dock in Toledo.

694
00:31:20,790 --> 00:31:21,899
Beautiful burgundy car.

695
00:31:21,899 --> 00:31:22,800
We found the car.

696
00:31:23,159 --> 00:31:24,570
It's in mint condition, by the way.

697
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:25,050
Oh wow.

698
00:31:25,050 --> 00:31:28,139
It's got a sticker that's cool
with the Edmund Fitzgerald logo.

699
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:29,430
Columbia Transportation.

700
00:31:29,490 --> 00:31:29,669
Yeah.

701
00:31:29,850 --> 00:31:34,649
Uh, in one of the, uh, rear, uh, windows,
uh, that shows how proud he was of it.

702
00:31:34,710 --> 00:31:37,350
So he's about to go on this
great road trip with his buddy

703
00:31:37,350 --> 00:31:40,710
Mark Thomas, who's also a fellow
deckhand out of the Cleveland area.

704
00:31:41,070 --> 00:31:43,260
They're gonna go out to
Colorado to get Coors Beer.

705
00:31:43,545 --> 00:31:45,015
Rich back when that was exotic.

706
00:31:45,015 --> 00:31:46,485
I swear to God, no one believes me.

707
00:31:47,295 --> 00:31:48,075
Then they went to la.

708
00:31:48,075 --> 00:31:50,445
Of course they're gonna, they're
gonna go to LA and come back along.

709
00:31:50,865 --> 00:31:53,415
Route 66, a hell of a trip, about
a month long trip and so on.

710
00:31:53,415 --> 00:31:54,195
They got the money for it.

711
00:31:54,195 --> 00:31:55,305
So they got the time.

712
00:31:55,305 --> 00:31:55,755
Why not?

713
00:31:56,265 --> 00:31:59,805
And as you know, in September he finds
out in the payphone at Silver Bay

714
00:31:59,805 --> 00:32:03,555
Municipal Bar that his girlfriend,
Cindy Reynolds, a waitress in Toledo is.

715
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:06,820
He's gotta think fast and he
says, don't worry about it.

716
00:32:06,909 --> 00:32:07,810
We'll move in together.

717
00:32:08,139 --> 00:32:09,190
We'll raise the child ourselves.

718
00:32:09,190 --> 00:32:09,700
We'll be okay.

719
00:32:09,700 --> 00:32:10,480
We've got plenty of money.

720
00:32:11,020 --> 00:32:12,190
And she's relieved by this.

721
00:32:12,190 --> 00:32:15,850
And she tells him, why don't you go ahead
and excuse me, go on that road trip.

722
00:32:15,850 --> 00:32:17,169
Anyway, you're looking forward to it.

723
00:32:17,169 --> 00:32:18,370
The baby's not due until June.

724
00:32:19,140 --> 00:32:19,920
That's November.

725
00:32:20,250 --> 00:32:20,760
Why not?

726
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:24,720
So he is headed for the most,
the greatest year of his life.

727
00:32:24,780 --> 00:32:26,010
He's gonna go on this great road trip.

728
00:32:26,010 --> 00:32:26,910
He's got money in the bank.

729
00:32:26,910 --> 00:32:29,790
He's got a soon to be wife
and a child, and he is ready

730
00:32:29,790 --> 00:32:30,870
for all of it, pretty much.

731
00:32:30,930 --> 00:32:32,700
And of course his ship goes down.

732
00:32:32,700 --> 00:32:34,170
So yeah, that's when.

733
00:32:34,490 --> 00:32:38,330
Ruth Hudson, his mom, who is uh,
four foot nine, and she told you

734
00:32:38,330 --> 00:32:41,629
she was five foot five and you
believed her, sent a real spark plug.

735
00:32:41,660 --> 00:32:44,149
She, she lives her only child,
and I can only imagine how

736
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:46,250
utterly devastating that would be.

737
00:32:46,340 --> 00:32:48,290
But then she finds out six
months later that guess what?

738
00:32:48,290 --> 00:32:49,190
You're gonna be a grandmother.

739
00:32:49,510 --> 00:32:50,680
And she was not expecting that.

740
00:32:50,740 --> 00:32:53,200
So she and Heather were extremely close.

741
00:32:53,230 --> 00:32:54,490
Heather had four kids.

742
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:58,780
The oldest one, uh, Austin, looked just
like, looks just like Bruce Hudson.

743
00:32:59,170 --> 00:33:02,950
So Bruce Hudson said, I love all my
grandchildren, but yes, I play favorites.

744
00:33:04,750 --> 00:33:05,860
So I love that.

745
00:33:05,860 --> 00:33:08,620
So that's one of the stories, and
I'll tell you another quick one.

746
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,190
Uh, Eddie Bendon, age
47, about to retire also.

747
00:33:12,550 --> 00:33:16,780
He's got, uh, a good pension set
up, um, from his years on the lakes.

748
00:33:16,780 --> 00:33:18,820
He is the, uh, first assistant.

749
00:33:19,230 --> 00:33:21,240
Chief engineer, which is
high ranking of course.

750
00:33:21,630 --> 00:33:26,160
Um, he and his wife have got no kids,
Helen, she lives in Ohio also, and they're

751
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:28,200
about to leave on November, uh, eighth.

752
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:33,420
The day before they left, he goes across
to Duluth to buy a two karat diamond

753
00:33:33,420 --> 00:33:38,070
ring for their 25th anniversary, and
instead of simply stuffing that in his

754
00:33:38,070 --> 00:33:40,920
duffel bag the way you normally would,
you're gonna see her in three days.

755
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:42,900
She's gonna be on the
docks picking you up.

756
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,300
He gives it to a friend
of his with his love note.

757
00:33:45,835 --> 00:33:46,615
Wrapped around it.

758
00:33:46,645 --> 00:33:50,485
And for reasons only Eddie Bendin
knows, he gave it to his friend

759
00:33:50,485 --> 00:33:51,865
and said, mail it to my wife.

760
00:33:52,345 --> 00:33:56,305
And of course his ship goes down and a
few days later she gets this package in

761
00:33:56,305 --> 00:33:59,665
the mail and she wore that ring the rest
of her life and she never remarried.

762
00:33:59,695 --> 00:34:03,325
So I kept on finding pretty
amazing personal stories.

763
00:34:04,135 --> 00:34:06,115
Yeah, that one was, was
really interesting too.

764
00:34:06,235 --> 00:34:09,835
It makes you wonder if he just felt
like something was wrong ahead of

765
00:34:09,835 --> 00:34:12,835
time, but why else would you do that?

766
00:34:13,045 --> 00:34:13,465
It's.

767
00:34:13,875 --> 00:34:19,065
Something in the air that he sensed that a
few others did, and there's a lot of those

768
00:34:19,065 --> 00:34:20,865
stories that, that you tell in the book.

769
00:34:20,865 --> 00:34:25,034
That's why I really, I, I really
appreciated the perspective of the,

770
00:34:25,095 --> 00:34:28,695
of the crew members and their families
and what kind of people they were,

771
00:34:28,695 --> 00:34:32,025
and what kind of lives they had,
and what kind of relationships they

772
00:34:32,025 --> 00:34:33,180
had with their friends and family.

773
00:34:33,435 --> 00:34:35,235
I thought that was really fantastic.

774
00:34:35,505 --> 00:34:37,695
Something I hadn't read
before about the story.

775
00:34:39,105 --> 00:34:42,465
Now obviously the story of
the Edmund Fitzgerald is, is.

776
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:47,010
Remember today, largely because of
the Gordon Lightfoot song, the Wreck

777
00:34:47,010 --> 00:34:48,630
of the Edmund Fitzgerald great song.

778
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:49,650
Mm-hmm.

779
00:34:50,310 --> 00:34:54,330
So why do you think that song,
even all these years later,

780
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:56,610
still has such a lasting impact?

781
00:34:56,790 --> 00:34:58,920
Well, first of all, you can't deny it.

782
00:34:59,100 --> 00:35:01,800
Let's be honest, without the song,
there is no book because there are

783
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,470
a few stunning stats, and these
are stats that Rich, you know.

784
00:35:04,529 --> 00:35:10,020
But from 1875 to 1975, there
are at least 6,000 commercial

785
00:35:10,020 --> 00:35:11,370
shipwrecks on the Great Lakes.

786
00:35:11,370 --> 00:35:13,800
Not rowboats and sailboats,
but the big boys.

787
00:35:13,950 --> 00:35:15,210
That's a crazy number.

788
00:35:15,210 --> 00:35:16,560
That's the low estimate, by the way.

789
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:18,840
That's one per week,
every week for a century.

790
00:35:19,245 --> 00:35:20,535
30,000 crew loss.

791
00:35:20,535 --> 00:35:22,214
That's one per day,
every day for a century.

792
00:35:22,275 --> 00:35:23,955
And we all know probably one.

793
00:35:24,225 --> 00:35:25,634
And that is M Fitzgerald.

794
00:35:25,634 --> 00:35:26,475
And that's because of the song.

795
00:35:26,475 --> 00:35:29,745
He did a great job with it, as
you know, about 95% accurate.

796
00:35:29,775 --> 00:35:30,825
Uh, the families love it.

797
00:35:30,825 --> 00:35:34,275
They play it at their reunions, their
family reunions for their grandkids.

798
00:35:34,275 --> 00:35:35,745
They never met their
grandfathers of course.

799
00:35:35,805 --> 00:35:39,075
So that's, of course is one of the
biggest reasons why he can't escape that.

800
00:35:39,585 --> 00:35:40,755
Two, the mystery of it.

801
00:35:40,815 --> 00:35:43,214
We've been talking about that
throughout your show and we

802
00:35:43,214 --> 00:35:44,984
can't quite close the loop.

803
00:35:44,984 --> 00:35:46,095
I think we're getting closer to.

804
00:35:46,470 --> 00:35:50,879
More likely and less likely, but I'm not
claiming any absolute authority here.

805
00:35:50,910 --> 00:35:52,920
So that mystery always
draws people to it as well.

806
00:35:52,950 --> 00:35:56,100
The third thing as crazy
as that first stat is Rich.

807
00:35:56,370 --> 00:36:01,290
You know this one From November 10th
to the present, November 10th, 75 to

808
00:36:01,290 --> 00:36:05,490
the present, there have been zero Great
Lakes shipwrecks on the Great Lakes

809
00:36:05,495 --> 00:36:09,839
commercial shipwrecks, I dunno which,
which stat's crazier 6001st century.

810
00:36:09,995 --> 00:36:11,375
Or zero for a half century.

811
00:36:11,705 --> 00:36:12,785
So this is the last one.

812
00:36:12,785 --> 00:36:14,825
It's kinda like nine 11 or Titanic.

813
00:36:14,884 --> 00:36:16,654
This is the one you study, essentially.

814
00:36:16,654 --> 00:36:17,375
So that's part of it.

815
00:36:17,734 --> 00:36:20,525
I'm gonna ask, add one more thing
that applies to all your work.

816
00:36:20,915 --> 00:36:25,475
I think, uh, whether it's on the
seas or uh, on the lakes, it's

817
00:36:25,835 --> 00:36:28,295
human beings in a ship in trouble.

818
00:36:28,825 --> 00:36:31,944
It's something that has been a part of our
history since we've been writing history,

819
00:36:31,975 --> 00:36:35,424
and we're always attracted to that story
and pulling for the, the guys on that

820
00:36:35,424 --> 00:36:36,984
ship, the men and women, whoever it is.

821
00:36:37,615 --> 00:36:38,634
Noah's arc man.

822
00:36:38,964 --> 00:36:41,095
It's probably the best
known story in the Bible.

823
00:36:41,274 --> 00:36:43,015
Well, that's it, isn't it?

824
00:36:43,345 --> 00:36:45,955
I mean, it's people in a ship
and, and animals in that case,

825
00:36:45,955 --> 00:36:47,575
of course, trying to survive.

826
00:36:47,605 --> 00:36:51,205
It's Titanic, it's Nia,
it's the perfect storm.

827
00:36:51,475 --> 00:36:54,955
There's something very elemental about
people in a ship trying to survive,

828
00:36:54,955 --> 00:36:56,064
and this is part of that as well.

829
00:36:56,064 --> 00:36:58,075
Yeah, and I think the song puts you there.

830
00:36:59,955 --> 00:37:04,995
Yeah, I, I remember as a kid hearing
the Edmund Fitzgerald on the radio

831
00:37:04,995 --> 00:37:08,115
and just thinking, you know, I didn't
know anything about it, of course,

832
00:37:08,145 --> 00:37:11,940
but it just had this, you know, it,
it made this imagery in my head of.

833
00:37:12,630 --> 00:37:15,960
This mystery ship and
sailing through the storm.

834
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:16,920
And why did it sink?

835
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,520
And, and, you know, I really didn't
think much about it until later

836
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:23,790
on in my adult years, but it does
just paint such a good picture.

837
00:37:23,790 --> 00:37:28,860
You know, Gordon Lightfoot was
very involved in the lives of the

838
00:37:28,890 --> 00:37:31,980
family, members of the survivors
long after the shipwreck.

839
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:35,759
And I think that helped as well,
that he, he really cared and he

840
00:37:35,759 --> 00:37:37,680
really, he was very passionate about.

841
00:37:37,950 --> 00:37:38,040
Mm-hmm.

842
00:37:38,279 --> 00:37:39,990
The story and remembering it.

843
00:37:40,860 --> 00:37:43,200
Well, I'll tell you what, Rich,
I hope your viewers and listeners

844
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:44,850
know you do your homework.

845
00:37:44,850 --> 00:37:45,810
You didn't just do your homework.

846
00:37:45,810 --> 00:37:46,650
You need to read the book.

847
00:37:46,980 --> 00:37:50,490
You, you pulled out the most important
things, in my opinion, and yeah.

848
00:37:50,490 --> 00:37:54,720
That the mis and he and he himself lists
three or four possibilities for what

849
00:37:54,720 --> 00:37:57,779
happened with this ship, and those three
or four possibilities are still out there.

850
00:37:57,779 --> 00:37:57,839
Yeah.

851
00:37:58,230 --> 00:37:59,400
Um, but yeah, you're right.

852
00:37:59,400 --> 00:37:59,850
You gotta know.

853
00:38:00,155 --> 00:38:01,385
Family's very well.

854
00:38:01,805 --> 00:38:05,525
Uh, so, well, he talked to Ann Ruth
on her deathbed by phone, uh, the

855
00:38:05,525 --> 00:38:07,085
day before the 40th anniversary.

856
00:38:07,505 --> 00:38:10,835
So that's how close they were,
and he invited them backstage.

857
00:38:11,225 --> 00:38:12,545
I saw 'em at the concerts.

858
00:38:12,815 --> 00:38:17,225
And he also, um, started a, a
scholarship, uh, in their name at

859
00:38:17,225 --> 00:38:18,305
the Great Lakes Sam Marital Academy.

860
00:38:18,305 --> 00:38:21,840
So he's a, I mean, it's hard of
heroes when all 29 men go down,

861
00:38:22,140 --> 00:38:24,275
but he was definitely a hero
on this story, in my opinion.

862
00:38:24,665 --> 00:38:26,405
A lot of people were saying, uh, they.

863
00:38:26,850 --> 00:38:31,589
Poured 29 or they poured 30 beers
out on the beach, on the Great Lakes.

864
00:38:31,589 --> 00:38:33,629
29 for the crew and one
for Gordon Lightfoot.

865
00:38:34,229 --> 00:38:34,259
Uh.

866
00:38:34,950 --> 00:38:36,180
I've heard that also.

867
00:38:36,540 --> 00:38:39,240
And when they ring the bell at Whitefish
point before the families and each time

868
00:38:39,240 --> 00:38:43,410
they name a crew member, a family member
goes up and rings the actual bell.

869
00:38:43,410 --> 00:38:43,890
That is the bell.

870
00:38:43,890 --> 00:38:44,610
That wasn't the ship.

871
00:38:44,610 --> 00:38:46,410
And they brought that up years ago.

872
00:38:46,470 --> 00:38:48,720
And they bring it now 31 times.

873
00:38:49,110 --> 00:38:51,060
30 times for all the other shipwrecks.

874
00:38:51,060 --> 00:38:52,170
'cause they know they're not the only one.

875
00:38:52,170 --> 00:38:52,620
Of course.

876
00:38:52,620 --> 00:38:54,780
And those people suffer
just as much as they have.

877
00:38:54,810 --> 00:38:58,110
And these days, one more for Gordon
Lightfoot and that's what they do at

878
00:38:58,110 --> 00:38:59,640
Mariner's Church, also in Detroit.

879
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:00,090
Mm-hmm.

880
00:39:00,330 --> 00:39:02,430
At the very church that he
sings about in the song.

881
00:39:02,490 --> 00:39:04,590
And it's appropriate because his.

882
00:39:05,085 --> 00:39:07,425
Compassion on this front is
why we all still remember it.

883
00:39:07,755 --> 00:39:08,025
Yeah.

884
00:39:09,255 --> 00:39:12,345
Now, were you involved in any
of the events taking place to

885
00:39:12,345 --> 00:39:13,605
honor the 50th anniversary?

886
00:39:13,605 --> 00:39:14,265
I wasn't involved in all of them.

887
00:39:14,415 --> 00:39:14,985
I'm just kidding.

888
00:39:15,165 --> 00:39:18,165
Especially in conjunction
with your book release, right?

889
00:39:18,225 --> 00:39:19,995
Um, no, I can't go to
all of 'em, of course.

890
00:39:20,115 --> 00:39:20,205
Right.

891
00:39:20,325 --> 00:39:21,375
I was invited to a lot of them.

892
00:39:21,735 --> 00:39:24,915
I did the, uh, the main thing I did on
the anniversary, I went to Whitefish Point

893
00:39:24,915 --> 00:39:29,115
itself, and we had a public event at two
thou, uh, at two o'clock in the afternoon.

894
00:39:29,505 --> 00:39:31,125
It's 30 degrees out there, 27 degrees.

895
00:39:31,125 --> 00:39:31,485
This is.

896
00:39:32,070 --> 00:39:36,240
The upper peninsula of Michigan looking at
17 miles out there is where the ship is.

897
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:36,660
Yeah.

898
00:39:36,750 --> 00:39:38,625
Um, they got 3000 people.

899
00:39:39,660 --> 00:39:42,720
And that means like two miles of
parking because there's no parking

900
00:39:42,720 --> 00:39:43,680
lot that can hold those people.

901
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:44,850
There's no hotels in town.

902
00:39:45,180 --> 00:39:46,530
The restaurants, it's like two.

903
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:49,500
So this was quite incredible
that we had that kind of crowd.

904
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:50,970
The governor of the state was there.

905
00:39:51,450 --> 00:39:54,180
Uh, and then later on that night, we
had a private event at seven o'clock,

906
00:39:54,180 --> 00:39:58,020
which is when the ship went down 50 years
earlier for the family members themselves.

907
00:39:58,260 --> 00:40:00,960
And that was also, uh,
streamed, live streamed.

908
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:04,800
And you can still check it out, I believe
last I checked, they had a half million.

909
00:40:05,210 --> 00:40:05,810
Views.

910
00:40:05,839 --> 00:40:06,950
So 500,000.

911
00:40:06,950 --> 00:40:08,270
Just crazy, crazy numbers.

912
00:40:08,750 --> 00:40:11,569
And I also did an event in Duluth
before the event about two days

913
00:40:11,569 --> 00:40:14,750
earlier, a big conference with
all like two days of speakers.

914
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:20,210
Then just last week we did the an event
at the Minnesota Historical Society with

915
00:40:20,210 --> 00:40:24,259
a split rock lighthouse crew Normally
held there, but too big a crowd this year.

916
00:40:24,259 --> 00:40:24,440
So.

917
00:40:25,005 --> 00:40:27,015
400 people there in Minneapolis as well.

918
00:40:27,015 --> 00:40:31,065
So quite a few of these things and at
all places, I've gotta say, they've

919
00:40:31,065 --> 00:40:34,905
all been respectful, knowledgeable,
and I think sensitive to the families.

920
00:40:35,175 --> 00:40:38,325
Yeah, that's, that's really good to hear.

921
00:40:38,355 --> 00:40:40,815
Rather than just, uh,
you know, exploiting it.

922
00:40:40,815 --> 00:40:42,050
It's, uh, exactly.

923
00:40:42,070 --> 00:40:45,075
It definitely needs to be treated with
the respect that it deserves, including

924
00:40:45,075 --> 00:40:46,455
talking to knuckleheads like me.

925
00:40:46,515 --> 00:40:49,695
Trust me, I tell you're not a knucklehead,
you're knowledgeable, informed, and

926
00:40:49,695 --> 00:40:51,135
sensitive guy in this, so I appreciate it.

927
00:40:51,720 --> 00:40:52,350
Well, thank you.

928
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:56,550
Well, once again, the book is called
GAILs of November, the Untold Story of

929
00:40:56,550 --> 00:40:58,950
the Edmund Fitzgerald by John U Bacon.

930
00:40:59,250 --> 00:41:00,330
It's a fantastic book.

931
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:04,920
It's packed with Rich details of all the
lives of the men and their families, and

932
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:07,080
it, it's a very much a tribute to them.

933
00:41:07,110 --> 00:41:09,300
So John, where can everyone
find and purchase the book?

934
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:12,960
Uh, the easiest way to find
it is john u bacon.com.

935
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:15,660
That's my website, and we can get
it from obviously Amazon, Barnes

936
00:41:15,660 --> 00:41:17,160
and Noble, local bookstores.

937
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:19,260
They're all linked on that, on that spot.

938
00:41:19,380 --> 00:41:20,430
Books a million and so on.

939
00:41:20,490 --> 00:41:22,740
And you can also find out
the book tour on there.

940
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:24,570
Now most of it's done, but not all of it.

941
00:41:24,630 --> 00:41:27,930
And we're still traveling around,
including probably Florida, Texas, the

942
00:41:27,930 --> 00:41:29,910
west coast, so we're getting around still.

943
00:41:29,910 --> 00:41:31,290
And also Michigan as well.

944
00:41:31,290 --> 00:41:34,200
Houghton, Michigan coming up,
Cleveland, Ohio for a second time.

945
00:41:34,650 --> 00:41:36,960
Um, and you can also write me
there as well, so that's always

946
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:37,710
good to hear from people.

947
00:41:38,985 --> 00:41:42,885
And what about if someone wants to find
more information about your other work and

948
00:41:42,885 --> 00:41:44,565
your other books, where can they do that?

949
00:41:44,565 --> 00:41:48,045
You can also find that on john u
bacon.com, including the books behind me.

950
00:41:48,105 --> 00:41:48,585
There we go.

951
00:41:49,185 --> 00:41:51,735
Uh, let them lead about coaching
the high school hockey team.

952
00:41:52,185 --> 00:41:56,025
Um, the Great Halifax explosion, which
we're talking at Hollywood about.

953
00:41:56,085 --> 00:41:58,395
That was 1917 and another
maritime disaster.

954
00:41:58,965 --> 00:42:01,665
Um, which by the way, the sales of
that, even though it's eight years

955
00:42:01,665 --> 00:42:05,685
old, have picked up considerably,
uh, since this book came out because

956
00:42:05,715 --> 00:42:06,855
it's often packaged together.

957
00:42:07,590 --> 00:42:09,450
Yeah, I've done an episode
about that one as well.

958
00:42:09,450 --> 00:42:12,480
That's a really remarkable story.

959
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:12,660
Yeah.

960
00:42:12,720 --> 00:42:13,200
Crazy.

961
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:14,700
I'll have to read your
book about that one.

962
00:42:15,270 --> 00:42:17,010
I already know the story,
but I'll read it anyway.

963
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:18,090
There we go.

964
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:18,600
Thanks.

965
00:42:20,100 --> 00:42:21,630
Well, thank you so much, John.

966
00:42:21,630 --> 00:42:22,650
I really appreciate you.

967
00:42:22,650 --> 00:42:26,250
I know you've been incredibly
busy lately, but, uh, thanks for

968
00:42:26,250 --> 00:42:29,250
stopping by and chatting with
me for shipwrecks and Sea Dogs.

969
00:42:29,255 --> 00:42:30,255
I, I can't thank you enough.

970
00:42:30,255 --> 00:42:31,620
Hey, you had a great podcast.

971
00:42:31,620 --> 00:42:32,430
You do a great job.

972
00:42:32,730 --> 00:42:34,020
I'll come back anytime for yours.

973
00:42:34,020 --> 00:42:34,830
This is good stuff.

974
00:42:35,370 --> 00:42:35,670
Thanks.

975
00:42:36,540 --> 00:42:37,140
Thank you.